Ep. 5 with Dawson Putthoff - Building a career that doesn't limit your ambitions

Dawson Putthoff, founder of Black Banner Productions, shares his journey from freelancing to starting his own production company. He discusses the challenges and rewards of running a production company, including the importance of building a strong portfolio, the need for a goal-oriented and task-driven mindset, and the value of networking and building relationships. Dawson also talks about the balance and transition of being a freelancer or a production company, the challenges of scaling the business, and the importance of understanding the financial aspects of running a production company. 

Interested in coming on the show, or know someone who would be a good fit? Email us here - seth@sethlowephoto.com

Follow the show on Instagram - @thesolocreativepod

Transcript

Seth Lowe (00:00.078)
Dude, how many people can say that they met through Roger Deakins? Probably not too many, but that is kind of a cool way. I'm really glad it happened, because we just connected instantly. We need to have a Roger Deakins and barbecue. That's a great way to start off a friendship. Dude, totally agree.

Seth Lowe (00:34.19)
All right, welcome to the solo creative. Today we're chatting with Dawson Putthoff down in Kansas City. Dawson runs a production company called Black Banner. What's going on, man? Well, thanks for having me on. Yeah, dude, I'm excited. You are my fourth guest and admittedly the one I know the least about. So this will be fun to chat and just get some like totally raw, honest questions and answers going here. Dude, I love it. So, yeah, tell me a little bit about Black Banner and you know what you guys are up to. Yeah, so Black Banner Productions.

is my production company I started about two and a half years ago. We're in Kansas City. We mainly focus on like social media type content, ads, that kind of creative work. But the goal is to work in the bigger and bigger budgets that would be more like larger client spots. We're trying to figure out a lot of things right now like future wise. There's a lot of big goals and a lot of big dreams that we got that we're trying to move towards. So.

Yeah, right now it could morph into like a social media management agency within the content creative space. So there's a lot of avenues, but been doing photo and video for about five, six years now. I started in the photo space that I saw people on YouTube making videos about photo. And I was like, that's cool. I want to make video. Didn't know how much of like a beast that was to learn. And so I just kind of jumped in blindly and then started learning.

I was in the wedding space, weddings led to commercial commercial, um, is kind of where we're at now. So that's like a super fast run of where we're at. Yeah. My, my initial perception of you was that you are very like goal oriented and task driven. Um, where does that come from? That's a good question. I, I mean, all the way back into my childhood, my mom would always be like, Hey, if you start something, you finish it no matter what it is. So if you start a sport and you're like, I hate this sport mom, like,

I let me get out, I don't want to do it. She's like, nope, you started it. You're a man of your word, you're going to finish it. So she drilled that into me at a young age. And then once I got older, I joined the military. So I was in the army for six years. And that taught me a lot of like, just you get the things done that you have to get done. And you do it alongside of people. You learn how to delegate, you learn how to utilize each other's strengths. You pick up each other's weaknesses and you move forward. And so I'd probably...

Seth Lowe (02:52.782)
I'd probably say that the mix between just like my upbringing and then just kind of hard work and learning stuff through the military. Yeah, that's cool. So you said after you know, post military before starting Black Banner, were you just freelancing doing weddings or was and you just kind of jumped in? No. Do you have any perception of what this world was like? I mean, what was you know, what did you imagine it was like when you first got going? I had no idea.

Like I was the kind of kid that watched like Peter McKinnon when he was like big time, you know, and like photo. Cannon was crushing it on the photo and video side. And then I was kind of coming up into when Sony released like the A7S3, the A7 -3, and that was like a big disruptor in the space. And so I was kind of like, that was when I kind of came up in that, in that journey. But no, I had no idea where I would be. Like, I mean, I've gotten to work with athletes. Like it's like,

professional football players, like we have the Chiefs, like we did the Chiefs parade. Like I got a selfie with Patrick Mahomes. I got a selfie with Donna Kelsey, like working like Travis Kelsey's like events. I've shot with like Kirk Cousins and like different NBA players, Tyler Hero, Jamal Murray at the Nuggets, been able to travel. Like I never thought this stuff was possible. For me, I was like, I'm just going to be a wedding photographer because I saw that you can make a lot of money doing it. So I was like, that's a good start.

And then once I started dabbling, I was like, wait, there's so much more in this industry and you just have to meet the right people. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. I mean, how many layers and how much work is happening and how much content is being produced? It's kind of unbelievable. It's even hard to explain to people that aren't, aren't involved in, you know, like there's just no way to explain how much stuff is being made. So, um, at what point did you like decide to kind of label yourself as a production company and.

You know, were you were you just going by your name as a freelancer and how did that transition happen? Yeah. So once I was in the wedding space, I kind of created Dawson put off photography and I realized quickly that that just pigeonholes you into like this one spot. You can't really morph and do anything else. And so I just saw other people do that and it like they look like they were stuck. And I was like, man, I think something that's valuable.

Seth Lowe (05:15.182)
Is this like this front that you put up in front of people like I'm this I'm something more than what you would expect as a freelancer So in my head, I was like, well, I know a production company would look really nice to back your name though All I'm doing is like freelance work, but behind the scenes. It's a production company. Yeah, you're solving more than a singular problem Yeah, and I was like, oh so then once I figured out I should make a brand I was like, okay I need to come up with something other than just my name and so black banner was Was the thought and I was like, all right, cool. Let's go with that

Do you have employees? I do. I have one full time. I just hired another gal that is going to start creating the social media department, which that's going to look like the management side of things. So the distribution. We found that we could create a lot of content and we have a lot of like retainer clients. So we do these like monthly things. We give the client the content and sometimes they don't know how to utilize it. So just like get burned up or used and or not used at all.

And they're like, hey, why is our content flopping? And I was like, dude, we gotta solve this problem. And so if I can take that in -house and be like, hey, here's another service we offer, we'll distribute the content for you. We'll target the right people. We'll go after the right clientele. We'll manage the accounts, build the brand up by interacting with people on social media accounts. I just think it'd be a bigger win. And so that's kind of been the next push in Black Banner's life, I guess. Yeah, that's great. I would say one of my...

like early challenges I discovered when I was working with smaller like brand direct stuff, like maybe like a regional hospital or something would be, we would create the content and they would love it and they'd be pumped, but they didn't have a distribution plan or like an actual like way to market or promote the content. And so like a few months later you check in and they just kind of be like, man, well it kind of fizzled and fell flat. And it's like sort of like you feel bad or maybe that blame you kind of feel like is on you. And really it's not your fault. You know, you're just, you're just the guy creating the stuff.

So I started quickly as soon as I would take on, once I'd realized that was an issue, one of my first questions with brand director, client direct stuff was like, what's your distribution plan? How are you gonna use this content? And just to make sure that they thought through that next step, then it wasn't just like, yeah, you put the video on Facebook and it's magically successful, because it can affect their perception of you if there's no actual plan to promote it beyond that. Totally, yeah. I mean, yeah, if you're gonna put your name on something, you want it to succeed.

Seth Lowe (07:37.87)
And like one of our leading motivators in this business is we wanna be results driven. So we wanna get our clients results. We wanna add value first more than anything. So we're not after just like taking people's money. We believe that if you put in the right work and you do good work, like money will follow. And so if I can help prove return on investment, sales is gonna be so easy. Yeah, that's so true. What are your guys like, what are your biggest challenges? I mean, you're.

You seem like most of your work is pretty local to you guys. So, you know, you're and I'm guessing you're probably competing with both a little bit bigger production companies, former versions of yourself where it's just a freelancer kind of standing on a production company name who's kind of multitasking or pointing to other freelancers. So are you competing on price, on quality of content? Like what are you know, what does that look like for you guys and what are some challenges there? Yeah, so I'd say we're in that like middle arena.

if you were to tier it, we have, you have that low tier arena, which is kind of that low hanging fruit, your freelancer, your intro. And we do pretty well in that space. And then there's that medium tier, which is like a little bit more established businesses that are still local. And then that upper echelon arena is that like big dog. You got your, you know, six figure shoots and those kinds of guys. And so I feel like we're right now, we're kind of stuck in this middle ground between the middle and the top tier.

Like I'm making that leap and that push and it's a slow push. It's not going to happen overnight. But I think one of our challenges right now is not having the portfolio to back up the ambition that we have to take on those bigger clients. So I've built a lot of those networks. I got a lot of the people that I would need if I were to land one of those clients. We could execute efficiently and we would have a great product. But I just know that right now my portfolio might be my like weakest link.

So I want to start making spec pieces, building those like relationships with people, growing together. And then another aspect I think like that's a could be a challenge is just lead generation. Like we do a lot of word of mouth stuff and I'm out, you know, shouting to everybody and anyone who will listen, just going to like network events and chatting with business owners. But I know that if I started learning how to run ads and if I could run ads effectively, like I know how to run ads.

Seth Lowe (10:03.598)
But if I could utilize some type of lead generation source where people are coming in, they're already interested and that just creates a warm lead. I'm really good at closing on those. Uh, so that would be probably my, those are probably my two challenges is like just to grow and, or to continue getting more clients out in the door to keep funds so that we can scale. Yeah. Do you, do you find yourself getting a lot of like emails from DPs or photographers that are looking at you as kind of like a production company or agency? They want to try to like DP a project for, or do you screen sometimes? Um,

Not a whole lot of like higher professionals, like bigger dogs. Um, we get a lot of people that want to be like interns. They're like entering in the space. Like, Hey, we see that you guys are a production company locally. We'd love to shadow you come in. Um, so we get a lot more like internship type stuff. Gotcha. Are you guys like pitching clients or do you just wait to someone like wait till someone comes up and like, Hey, here's kind of a rough idea. Here's our goal. And then you, you help them figure out how to achieve the goal or, you know, what's that balance look like?

Yeah, so it's kind of a mix of both. Obviously, if you get a warm lead and somebody's like, hey, we got this great idea, you can kind of come in and look at it and observe from your own eyes as a kind of a marketing specialist in a sense of being like, hey, I understand that this idea will work really well, or maybe it won't. And I'll tell you if it's not going to work. So you can kind of help them create the idea and the concept and do a little creative call or whatnot.

But on the other side, like, yeah, we're definitely going out. We're pitching ideas. Um, I have a few like clients that I'm like targeting. I'm like, they're on my list of like, I'm going to hit them. Uh, cause those are the big dogs that I want to like work for. And so I kind of have, that's almost like a, not necessarily a vision board, but just like, I have these like couple of clients that I'm like, I really want to work for, uh, and knock those out. Yeah, that's great. I think I share that, that idea too, like having, you know, kind of some dream clients, some clients I'm currently working with and.

then finding that balance of, I mean, the portfolio thing is so hard. Like I feel like my portfolio never lines up with my ambition. And partially that's just because I'm so bad at updating my portfolio. I'd say it's like 90 % of it. I have so much work that's just sitting on a hard drive because I haven't had time to go back through and reorganize it in the way I want to present it. Who's the audience that you're trying to reach out to and who are you sharing this with? Who's the norm?

Seth Lowe (12:24.046)
So I would say my audience is people that are, I would like to say maybe like within their first 10 years of freelancing, but hopefully, you know, it's people at any point in their journey, but I wanna, I would say it's, I wanna simultaneously hit people that are looking to learn something and wanna say, man, these are guys that are two, three, five, 10 years ahead of me. What kind of little nuggets can I pick up from them and whether it's like the good things they're doing and I can try to replicate.

for my own sake or what are some of the mistakes they've made and that I can avoid. But also in that, oh man, I've made that same mistake and I can relate to them and you don't feel like you're so alone. And I think that's a huge part of it because when you're a freelancer or a solopreneur, you feel so alone all the time. Even on big crew jobs, at the end of the day, you're always kind of competing with even the people you're working with and the people you're friends with. And you come off a job and you come back home and you're like, what's, you know.

Okay, I guess I got to find another job again, you know, and you just, you know, the mistakes are all on you. And when you have a victory or a win, you know, there's really no one celebrating it with you. It's just, you don't even know what the wins and the losses are. Sometimes you're just, you're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants, even with the best plan in the world. So I'm hoping that as people listen to this, um, they can connect with other people and kind of relate to some of the common goals and struggles and dreams we all have and become better and more successful freelancers through that.

No, that's awesome. I love that. I totally agree. I think there's a lot of that overlap in this industry, especially on the lonely side, because it can feel lonely. And if you don't figure yourself out quickly on just knowing internally, how do I motivate, how do I re -energize, what fires me up? Man, that's where burnout comes in real fast. Especially, so for me, like one of the things I just need is I need to go be with my friends. Like I just have to go sit in their, like I'll just show up to their house. I have a...

One of my best friends like he's married and I'll just go show up to the house. Don't say anything. I don't they don't have to entertain me I just got to go sit on the couch and I'll just sit there for like 30 minutes I'm good to go for like another week and a half like it doesn't need much But then having other creatives like this like just knowing what gives you life and energy Creating the project projects that you enjoy. Oh, man, that's that's massive Yeah, it it took me a long time to kind of figure out like what my energy was I?

Seth Lowe (14:50.734)
And it kind of came through having a kid. So I used to like a cycle, like a couple hours a day and then got married and had kids and just got so busy in that first couple of years of having kids. And I just wasn't riding my bike. And finally, after like a couple of years, I was like, I am like, I, I missed this and I need to go reenergize and rebuild myself. And I saw, you know, really committed to getting back out and riding and just not that I was like unhealthy or inactive, but just definitely, you know, lost what I loved and what filled me. Yeah.

Like even yesterday I went out and just got on the got on my bike and rode for two hours and I came and I was just like so pumped by the time I got done. That's amazing. Yeah, that's what it's about. So you are like, I would say you're probably like 10 years younger than me, which I think is really cool. And in some ways, like 10 years is like no age gap at all. Once you're adults, it kind of doesn't matter. Yeah. But then in a very technology driven careers, 10 years is like a lot. Yeah. So I feel like when I.

made the jump into freelancing and was trying to start out, you know, there was just no information on how the freelance industry worked or how business worked, how to make money, how much to charge. Like, I mean, you couldn't even go on YouTube and watch someone like Peter McKinnon, you know, right or wrong, whatever he has to say, it just didn't exist. So do you think it's easier now or do you think it was pretty easier for you to figure that stuff out or do you still think, you know, as someone who's just a few years into it, do you think it's still really hard to find actual valuable information?

Oh no, I think all the information's there. It's all out there. I think it comes down to the individual, if they want to go find it or not. The mix between, hey, do you really, really want this? Like, do you want to be successful? How bad do you want to be successful? I almost treat it like an athlete, like kind of how Kobe Bryant views basketball in that mentality. Like, I'm probably not as, what's the word I want to use, obsessed like Kobe is with basketball.

but I have that same mentality of like, I want to be the best that I can possibly be. So how am I spending my days? Am I researching? Am I learning? Am I meeting up with people that know more than me? Like, there's so many aspects of this business and freelance that it will take years to learn, but I'm gonna start chipping away at it every day. I'm gonna learn a little bit more, a little bit more. And so I think it comes down to the individual, because all the information's out there.

Seth Lowe (17:11.278)
When you say being the best you can be, does that mean the best camera operator, the best creative, the best business operator? I mean, what really resonates specifically within those? Yeah, that's good. So there was a book I read. Actually, I'm really bad at reading. So if anyone else is bad at reading, like, hey, I'm with you. I like listen to Audible. But in high school, I read like half a book, and I got one nugget out of it. And it was a Seal, like a Navy Seal book.

And this guy said one of his tricks and hacks to passing the Navy Seal Buds or like their boot camp was his goal was to be first, second or third in everything that they did. So whether that was rifle qualification, physical fitness, carrying logs and boats and whatever David Goggins is doing, like that mentality, I want to be first, second or third in everything. So if it's business, I want to be first, second or third. If it's the camera operator, I want to be first, second or third. Like I'm not going to be the best at everything.

but I can guarantee I will learn enough to be dangerous in every aspect within this organization. That's a great mentality. I mean, is there one of those that resonates with you as Black Band, or Black, sorry, so as all that. Black Banner, yeah. So as Black Banner grows, is there a specific category that resonates with you? Like, is it, man, I really want to grow Black Banner in a way where I can maybe hire some guy to run the business side and I really focus on the creative or?

I want to really scale the business and client side and I'll start to bring in creative people and resources around me. What does that look like? Yeah, I think for me, I find a lot of strength in the client facing and building the business side. I feel like I just have a I can wear that hat a lot better. I feel like then than most creatives. And so not that most other creators can't do it, but for some reason, I just think that way more naturally. That's your super power.

And so my, and then I have the other half of my brain, which is on the creative side. So I'm just good enough on the creative to get by and do good work. Um, but I feel like on the business side, that's where I can come in and really thrive. Yeah, I feel the same way. I really, I love the business side and I mean, I think of myself as a creative, obviously, and I really love that process, but the business side also gets me really excited. And, you know, hence this podcast and this conversation. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of people, um,

Seth Lowe (19:37.198)
like us that are probably sort of at a crossroads of like, am I a freelancer? Am I a production company? Which one do I own? Do I, you know, just try to become a knockout freelancer in my craft? Do I try to, you know, start to add an employee and scale a little bit? How did you, you know, what, how did you ultimately decide to go down the path you went down? Yeah.

I think I just looked down the future a little bit. I just thought about, where do I want to be in five years? What's the end goal for me? And so for me, I was like, I just don't want to be pigeonholed in something that I couldn't get out of. And so I'm going to build something that has a bigger foundation than most. So I was like, production company has the biggest foundation. You can do anything within a production company. You can niche down after, like, hey, we do music videos, or hey, we do sports, or whatever. But.

If you say, hey, I'm Dawson put off photography. Well, now if you build Dawson put off photography up, I can only do photos. Yeah. Because that's my name. And so I was like, hey, we need to figure something better out than that. So that was how I kind of decided to go the production route versus solely freelance. Though I still do a ton of freelance. I have friends that are in the creative space and they'll hire me to be a cam operator or. Yeah. They're like, I'll play a role in other people's jobs. That's awesome. Yeah. I wondered what you were doing there.

Do you think, uh, you know, if people have sort of a hunch where they want to go, or like, if they're, especially if they're coming from like, I'm a freelancer, I want to become a production company. How much of that is sort of like willing it and forcing it to happen? Or do you think you just kind of keep working at your craft and wait till the opportunities reveal themselves to start, you know, okay, I'm going to produce this and bring on the crew. Or do you just jump right in and be like, I'm a production company. Here's my team. Here's, you know, what it looks like.

I loved the mentality of like fake it till you make it especially starting out that was a big like you just have to put on the hat of like I am More than what I internally think I am. Yeah, if I have that like doubt and wrestle like dude I'm not that great or I'm not a videographer yet. I don't know how to do this or I only have this $1 ,500 camera. How could I be looked at as a commercial videographer or cam operator? I think the fake it till you make it helps obviously when you get your opportunities

Seth Lowe (21:54.158)
like hey, that's your time to be perfect. Don't miss your shots. If you get an opportunity, hit your shots. So practice, it's always a real event. So fail as, so for me, I've always been like fail as fast as you can while no one's paying attention and learn quickly. So fail, fail, fail, and learn, and learn, and learn. Make your own stuff on your own and then that will eventually pay off whenever that time comes. And so I think even in your question of like,

you know, when should you become a production company or like, does it just happen? I feel like if you give someone enough time, like if we gave myself, you know, back when I first started, if you give me a hundred years just to become to where I am today, I'm gonna get there over a hundred years. If you give me infinite years, I'll definitely get it. But if you're like, okay, I have to limit it to two years, well now it's a little harder. So I think it's just time, like that plays a role in how much can you learn in that time.

How many connections can you make in that time? So I don't know if that kind of answers your question, but. Yeah, it does. I mean, I produce a few things here and there for local clients and I'm not out trying to pitch that work, but if I, you know, a client approaches me and they're like, Hey, can you do, you know, a video of this or some photography of that? I'm like, yeah, my team can do this. And, you know, and I, but I don't say that without knowing that like I've got two or three good people, you know, alongside me in my local network that I.

can make sure I can pull that off. I'm not just promising something I can't do or I'm suddenly having sleepless nights trying to hire strangers on the internet to edit something or pull together graphics. So that's kind of how I navigate that. Totally, that's smart. So are there any, I think the grass is always greener. If you're like, people can be like, man, if I just had a production company, they would solve these problems. What are some things that you would say, here's some challenges I.

didn't really expect or foresee or some kind of just ongoing, not like necessarily big problems, but like, man, these are just some real daily things I have to deal with from like the side of kind of scaling a production company that is a lot harder than I expected. Yeah, I'd probably say the business side, like learning the taxes, learning, just being able to budget and figuring out businesses a lot harder. And there's so many things you don't know until you just jump in and you figure it out as you go.

Seth Lowe (24:19.662)
It's like a sink or swim and you got to have that mentality of if it gets hard, I'm going to push through. I'm going to get it done. So yeah, I think with a production company, once you start getting more and more gigs and clients and projects, now it's management and how do you make sure that you're not leaving clients in the dust and you're not forgetting people and you're still putting out good work. Then it talks about like, okay,

Can we upgrade gear? There's so many avenues in that are harder than you think until you're in it. And I think probably the hardest thing is just figuring out how to have reoccurring money. Like keeping the bills paid is the hardest chunk. That's the hardest thing to start and figure out. But once you get the formula, it starts to get a lot easier. Once you have a lot more time under your belt, because more people know about you, you do more jobs, those people talk. If you do good work, those people talk, and then those people talk. And it just kind of brings.

your network together. Um, so I think as time progresses, you get a bigger network, which helps with the funds. But when you're starting, you gotta be tight on the finances. Yeah, big time. I mean, I almost never had debt, maybe a little bit of, you know, a little bit of credit card debt here and there out of the gate when I was trying to acquire some gear or things like that. But time in the game is huge. And I mean, like you said, a builds your network, but also

kind of learning the rhythms of whatever kind of clients you're working with. When are they busy and spending money? When are they using a lot of their content? When are they not spending money? And then, you know, it can kind of give you an understanding of like, okay, this is a good season to maybe invest in gear because I know these clients are gonna keep me busy for the next six months, but I know my clients don't shoot anything first quarter, so I'm probably not gonna go spend 20 grand on gear first quarter, you know, something like that. You know, you just gotta learn that stuff through being in the game. Totally.

Yeah, I never got in any debt. That was my least favorite thing. I'm like, dude, I'm never going into debt for this stuff. That would be that's, that's how you just drown. And that's how you have sleepless nights. Yeah. I mean, I think there's some really smart ways to do it, but it's, it's not for me really. Yeah. I actually agree. I just don't know much about debt. I haven't learned it. And so I'm like, I'm going to stay away from that. Yeah. I mean, I had a John Carrington on last week and he's a phenomenal, phenomenal DP and.

Seth Lowe (26:44.558)
Like he, he talked about taking out a loan when he bought his first, um, Ari and some lenses and it was like 125 K, but he had a really good, you know, proven model of like, well, I've been renting this camera like every other week for a year straight. So I know the cash flows there to these clients. So it, you know, it's a smart move for him to rather than just like passing through the money to a rental house, you know, make the income for myself. Yeah. You're saying like it was a very calculated decision and investment and that mentality. Yes. I can get behind.

I think sometimes when we start thinking like production stuff, people are like, oh, I need to go get all of this lights and all of these cameras and all of these lenses. It's like, I only had a A7S III with a 24 to 70 for two years. One camera and one lens. And I went two years profitable and I hired a guy and it's like, when we needed another camera, we'd rent it. But it's like, it was that slow process. Yep. When I started freelancing, I had nothing but.

a five D Mark two, a 35 prime and an 85 prime and like a few extra batteries. And I mean, I, yeah, it was like the first two or three years, you know, like maybe a couple of light, small lights or something, but I just rented everything. You know, I didn't want to like take the hit and the risk on buying the gear. Also, I just didn't want to have to store it all and ensure it all and everything else. And, you know, it was just easy enough to like really get a handle on what the first couple of years are like without having the stress of owning and spending a bunch of money on gear. Yep. I feel.

What a, could you, I mean, I don't know if you, you know, it doesn't have to be exact numbers, but could you maybe kind of ballpark the income stream categories as a production company? Like how much of it's retainer work, how much of it's like one -off clients and jobs, maybe how much of it's production versus recycling content for the same, you know, a client, like, hey, we can re -edit it this way or that way, or, you know, whatever those, maybe something I'm missing. What does that kind of breakdown look like? For retainer work?

My focus and business model is like, I just want enough retainer clients to cover overhead. So for us to have this building, employees pay myself, keep the lights on. We're looking at needing like right around 14 ,000, bare minimum, that's our like bottom line. So I'm like, okay, if I can have 14 ,000 of retainer work every month, we will always keep going forward. We get a lot of one -offs.

Seth Lowe (29:10.19)
that are just like, or clients just come to us like, hey, we heard about you from so and so, please shoot our stuff. Awesome, we love that, because that turns into profit. So I'm a huge fan of those. And so that's kind of our focus is like, if we can keep retainer work, we will always be okay. If I can continue to get more and more and more retainer work, we can scale. And I can get more, like I can get higher talent, I can get more people that like kind of match the culture and the environment. And then,

we're doing these projects together, we're building, we're growing, we're growing and kind of go up together. So that's a little bit on the financial side of at least the business, what we need to cover and get done. How much of it, I mean are you doing a lot of, so within retainer work, are you constantly going out and acquiring new footage and shooting new stuff or is it like I said recycling older content? Totally.

Yeah, so we're doing new content every month. Most of the clients are social media type clients. So they need reupped, you know, social media videos is the main thing that we focus on because that's the most profitable. I don't focus too much on photography just because I don't that's not our like bread and butter. So we're like, hey, Instagram reels and TikToks are the hottest thing right now. If you want to grow, this is what you need. And everybody knows it.

So I'm like, I'm gonna capitalize, I'm gonna position myself and my business as this like industry leader. If you want high quality reels that are engaging, entertaining and or like effective with like the algorithm, cool, we got you. That's what we're gonna do. So those are the clients I try to focus on and they're, everybody needs social media content, but you gotta find clients that know that they need it, that have the ability to grow.

and can pay you what you're worth. Yeah. How, what is like the conversion from like a non retainer client to a retainer client look like? Are you actively just like, Hey, we take re we take people on as retainer or is it like, Hey, we're already doing a lot of work together. Let's do you want to move to retainer? What, what happens there commonly or you know, what goes on? Yeah. Um, honestly, I found that most people that have just like had monthly content with me.

Seth Lowe (31:32.494)
it's almost like on a handshake, we're just like, hey, we know that we need it every month. And I don't even have to say the word retainer. We're just like, we know it's gonna happen. But yeah, if we're filming once or twice, and then I'm like, hey, I think they could really benefit from this, I would bring it up in a conversation, say, hey, this is something we do with other clients, and we can normally put a little bit of a discount on it. So maybe like 10 % off, so that we know like, hey, you're gonna be here for at least another six months. And I can guarantee on that six month income to be here.

That's valuable. And then they know they're getting a deal and they're always getting new content. So they're excited about that. Any early retainer contracts or anything you signed that you're like, oh man, I gave away too much or I got screwed there. Yeah, I think that's part of the learning curve. You got to do it. You need to have those moments. I think what I learned with retainer work is I jumped into it too soon and the client that I had would just be asking for too much.

too many revisions, wasn't worth the time, they weren't the best to work with, and so you just feel drained. And you're like, I don't even wanna work with you. This is hard for me to get this out for you. Every day we shoot, I'm like, dude, this sucks. And I don't wanna do that. I started my business so I don't feel like, dude, I wanna work on projects I wanna work on. Now when you're starting out, you don't have the luxury of saying that. You're like, hey, I gotta buckle down and we're gonna get it done.

but with the hope of eventually you will get there. Yeah, do you think that was maybe just a miscalculation on your side of how much you should have charged for the retainer or maybe just a little bit of learning how to manage a client's expectations in reality? Yeah, probably client expectations more so. The money was good, but the question kinda becomes is it worth the headache? I think that's the real question, because you can work with great people or you can work with people that just like,

aren't great, so I'm like, I wanna work with great people. Yeah. At what point did you decide to bring on your first employee? Like, did you run some numbers in math? Did you're like, I just need help, I don't care, like, I'm gonna take the risk. What happened? Yeah. So, for me, I thought to myself, I was like, I need to figure out my systems for when I have more clients. So I was like, I wanna be ready for when that day comes, and I kinda jumped the gun a little early. So I just got, for Black Banner,

Seth Lowe (33:58.158)
It was 20, 22. I got the building here, the production company, like the studio renovated it. And then I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine. I was like, Hey, you want to be an intern? And like kind of joking. And then like a week later, he called me. He's like, Hey, like let's sit down and talk and about that. And I was like, Oh shoot. Like I'm in for it now. I knew I needed it, but it was like kind of scary. Cause it's like, that's a whole lot of overhead. I basically took my paycheck.

And I gave it to him. And I went without a paycheck for almost a whole year while managing the overhead of the building and making sure that him and his family are taken care of. And so I think I paid myself like eight, maybe eight to $10 ,000 that whole year out of the business account. Everything else got reinvested. And some people may or may not advise with that, but I knew that I had enough of a safety net. I was calculated. I thought through it.

And for the first three to four months of him working here, we broke even maybe every month. We weren't really profitable. We were just breaking even, which is better than going negative. And then about month six and eight is when it started to spike up. And we started getting those more clients. And then we got into a rhythm of where he's taking on edits, I'm shooting, I'm going out and getting clients, and he knows if I'm editing with him, like,

that's almost a problem, because that means I'm not outgoing and getting more. So he's trying to take things off my plate as I come in the door. So he's like, hey, what you got? Okay, let me take that. Let me run with it. So that's kind of our system of how we have things going. You said it was a buddy of yours. Was it someone, did you have to do a lot of training and kind of like, hey, you like this opportunity, I'm gonna kind of help teach you and build you up? Or was it like, man, this guy is super talented and I can really trust him just to do this while I focus on my side of the business?

Yeah, he is super talented. It did take a lot of training. So he was really good on the photo side. So I was like, I can teach him video. Yeah, which is a whole beast. Like, and not to mention editing, which is kind of his bread and butter now and where he's at. And so I was like, dude, this is kind of a I didn't know what I signed up for. Because we I mean, that took a whole nother eight hours. I was sitting training him every day. You know, like, hey, sit next to me, watch me edit. Here's how we're doing this.

Seth Lowe (36:22.798)
And then I'd have to go after hours and work on client work. So I'm doing extra hours, more than anyone, you know, like more than I want to. But I was like, this is an investment in him. I know he's worth it. He's good. He's got the eye. He's reliable. He's trustworthy. Like this guy is good. So I was like, I can bet on him. Yeah. I had an employee for like maybe two years and she was awesome. Like she was really great.

She was more like back end kind of client relationship, a little bit of accounting, a little bit of client, you know, new client outreach, just kind of like a mixed bag of roles. And in some ways it was really fantastic, but I definitely underestimated the amount of energy it takes to sort of keep working the pipeline for them to do and to steer them. And you know, no matter how hard of like a worker they are, how good they are, you just, it's such a different shift you have to have between like doing the work and setting up someone to do work.

And to your point, so talking on becoming a production company or being a freelancer, most freelancers I know, man, they love freedom. They love doing whatever they want. They're gone with the wind, they love it, you know? And for a business, man, it can't be that. You have to be on time, you have to show up. There is a schedule, but something I figured out how to kinda combat that is just what culture do you build here? What is the environment that they're working in? Do they enjoy it here? Are they...

you know, getting paid enough, are they getting enough breaks? Like, are you micromanaging people? Like, how do you as a leader take care of your people? And I've learned that most content creators are just like freelancers or whoever. They're hard to like land a job because they're like, we love our freedom. I want to go to a coffee shop every day. And I do too. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have an office when she worked for me. I live a couple of hours outside of Chicago and she lived downtown.

and well, like, you know, not quite downtown, but lived in the city. And, you know, so I had to be like, okay, here's kind of like our daily check in or weekly check in times. And like, I had to set up like, here's a, you know, here's a budget so you can get like some home office stuff for like a monthly coffee budget if you want to go like, you know, just all those things you don't think of, you know, that you want to take care of people and make them pumped to be working with you and keep them happy, you know? And it's not demanding on their part, you know, you'd want the same thing. You'd want to, you know.

Seth Lowe (38:48.558)
Like, okay, how am I, aside from just getting paid, like how do I have the resources I need to do my job? Dude, I think, yeah, what you're hitting is really impactful and powerful if someone can actually grasp that. I don't think we get taught that enough. I don't know. No one teaches this. No one teaches that. It's just, you got to figure it out. Like, what would you want? And then create that space for them. Like for me, I want the dopest studio environment possible. I like ambient lighting when I work, or like when I'm editing. So our office is like, got these like string lights that are blue.

It's beautiful. We got some orange lights, lamps. There's like music playing. It's great. Like that's the environment I want. And I'm just going to bring people into that. That's awesome. Yeah. There's so much you have to just figure out and hope that you don't like burn some bridges and you know, piss people off along the way. Cause like, you know, you don't know and you got it, but you have to act like, you know, and you know, it's just, it's a lot. That's actually good. Yeah. Lead with expectations. Like, Hey man, this is so new for me. Please be flexible. Cause I don't know what I'm walking into.

but I know I'm gonna get through it with you. I promise I will do my everything to get you there. And it's like by the end of the day, if I'm not getting paid, that's okay, I'm gonna make sure you get paid. Like you will never wonder if there's a paycheck coming your way. Like it'll always be there. Yeah, I'm a huge communication person too. Like, hey, I don't know what kind of problems you're experiencing or I don't see everything that you might see. So, you know, don't be afraid if like you're, if you've got an issue or something isn't quite right, like.

Just say something and like, let's figure it out because I don't want it to blow up in six months or something, you know, really go wrong. I'd rather have a tough conversation now or spend a little extra money now than have like a real problem on my hands down the road. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Totally agree. Do you make more or less money than you thought you would? Or did you have any perception? When I first started, I thought I was just going to be like a wedding photographer and I thought I could make like 70 a year. And I was like, that's awesome. I was like, that's freaking phenomenal. I'm in.

to shoot once or two or three times a weekend and a month and then edit at a coffee shop, that's cake for me. I was like, I can do that. So I was thinking that now it's like, as I've seen what's possible and I believe in myself more, because I'm like, wait, I have more confidence. I'm doing things, so I believe in myself more. I'm building myself up. I'm like, I think we can shoot for the moon.

Seth Lowe (41:13.422)
Like I think we can do some really cool things. Um, and so, yeah, now like we're making more than I ever thought we would. That's awesome. Um, and I'm, so I'm like, this is great. Like I still got to pay people and I have, and we're saving a lot. So now it's more of like build a goose egg so that we can take the next big step. Yeah. And so I love hearing that man. That's so cool. Yeah, dude. It's, it's, it was a lot of work. Cause like I said, there was a whole year where I was like, I'm not making anything and.

We gotta be very careful on how we progress, so it feels good. Do you work more than you thought you would?

I work more because I love it. I really enjoy this. And there's a lot of times I'm like, what else am I gonna do? I go watch Netflix at home. I don't have a family, I'm single, so that helps. Other people that are married, that's a whole different story. You gotta be present, you gotta nurture that relationship, you gotta be there. And I'm for that, 100 % when that time comes, my role today will look very different than when I'm married. And so for now, I'm like, I got nothing else to do.

I'm gonna keep grinding going for it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah for me. It's like there's always like, you know 40 or 50 or 60 or whatever hours of work that needs done any given week so it's really just for me like Okay, if my kids are off or home from school, you know three I probably don't want to be working in my basement after three because they're gonna you know, a they're gonna be Loud and annoying and be I just want to you know for not annoying but like they're gonna be disrupting the work anyway, I

So I might as well just not work and go hang out with them. But then that means, you know, when they go to bed at eight, I got to get back on and figure out that last hour I worked some nights, you know, or maybe I need to do something on a, you know, earlier or whatever, you know, and just kind of re -navigating what the work timeframe looks like. Bro, I love that. Like, cause that to me, I'm like, that's, that matters more than like money or success or whatever. Like if you're obviously you have to provide, like that's a big focus. You gotta bring the income in for the family, right?

Seth Lowe (43:17.934)
But like, yeah, I would rather be there with my kids than like sitting at my desk editing. And I'm gonna spend that time, because I'm gonna build them up more than I wanna build up this business. So like, internally, what I hear, I'm like, dude, that's awesome. Like Seth, yes, keep going, do that. Yeah, it's fun now, my daughter, she'll be seven here in a couple weeks. And so I've been kind of like figuring out ways to get her involved, you know, with little things. So sometimes it's just, you know, hey,

plug these batteries into the charger or, you know, showing her how I put cameras away in the case. And maybe she uses the air duster can and clean stuff off or, you know, just, just little things. And, you know, she loves it and it's fun. And it's a good way to kind of teach her about being organized and, you know, dad works for himself. He doesn't, you know, it's just fun letting her be around. Or maybe I'll give her receipts and she'd be like, okay, find the March folder and put it in there or whatever, you know, and dude, that's amazing. Yeah, it's so fun. And then my two year old comes down and just rips it all to shreds.

Let's go. Yeah. I saw him the other day. He was like, just like walking across the floor with like a $3 ,000 lens. And I was like, I think you're soccer ball buddy. Let me see that. Let me trade you. Let me trade you this. Yep. Yep. That's awesome. Yeah. That's just how it goes. Um, do you, do you invest a lot of money in personal work or, um, do you just let your client work stand for itself? A little bit of both. Um, I'm, I'm,

I'm in the phase of investing in personal work. So this next year is the growth year. This is the build year of, how do I word that better? Like this is the year to do all the specs. The big specs. Trying to level up this year. Yeah. Yes. So then it's like next year we should have, and we're trying to build all the systems now. So that next year it's like go time with bigger clients, bigger projects, bigger campaigns, bigger dollars, bigger amount of teams, like everything we just have to learn how to do.

because these are new skills that we haven't operated in. And so I'm trying to practice with friends that want to also do great work in Kansas City. And so yeah, I just created a pitch deck, like a little creative brief for like Porsche Kansas City. That's cool. And I have like another couple of guys that I'm working with that want to also do this. And so we collaborated on it.

Seth Lowe (45:41.742)
We've created it, we got it in like pre -production. Now I'm on the kind of the role of like, I'm gonna go find the client and say, hey, do you wanna be a part of this? If so, awesome. If not, we're gonna find another car brand and we're gonna go do the same idea. But they don't have to like, it's our money. Like I'm gonna fund it. Like it'll probably be 10, $15 ,000. So like that's a good chunk of change. But I'm like, I'm gonna bet that I can show that piece of work later down the road to my next client and then.

it'll help get work. Yep, yeah, that's awesome. I mean, it's really fun to be at a spot where you can like look at making personal work as an investment, be like, okay, here's how much I'm gonna invest in this because I believe it has this sort of outcome. And I mean, it doesn't mean you shouldn't just do, you know, personal work or something because you love it. And it's just enjoying to do or enjoyable to do. But it's really awesome and valuable if you can start to look at it as sort of like.

hey, I'm gonna invest some time and money into it with this desired outcome. And maybe it's just the story is the desired outcome and that has value to you. The relationship you're gonna make through telling the story is valuable to you or the sort of brand affiliation and client work you're gonna get from it. But being conscious of that is really important. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think if I was starting out and I wanted to level up my work really quickly, you can pull on favors with friends.

Like you get in the creative community that's in your city and just like, hey, what projects are you passionate about? I love cars. I want to do something with Porsche. That sounds really fun. And then like find those people and do it with them. And it can be free. Both of you guys working for free, you both get a great video at the end. We love it. I want to take care of the people that work with me because I don't want any bad names or anything like, hey, this is, you know, Dawson didn't take care of his people. I want to make sure they're taken care of.

And so that's how I'm going to operate. But yeah.

Seth Lowe (47:38.126)
Do you set like financial goals every year? Like I want to try to grow my income by like 15 % or whatever. Yeah, it's the goal right now has been to double every year. Nice man. That's aggressive. And it starts getting really aggressive. Yeah. Like this year, we planned three or last year we said, hey, we want to hit like right around the 250, 300. The next year we're going to hit the 500. And then the year after that, 1 million.

So we're in the year of the 500. But I changed that goal. We're like, I'm being ambitious. It's like the really it's going to be the 600 to 800 is where I want to hit this year. And that will help set up for the next goal, which is kind of out of nowhere. But yeah, there's a lot of a lot of things in the works. And I'm just like trying to hold everything together and keep it. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I would say my first like probably two to three years I doubled.

which was really great. And then, you know, I'm just, I'm solo, so I don't have, you know, like a production company. So the doubling thing isn't quite possible because there's only so much of you to go around. And then from there, I would say I hit like, I would say the first two years were like a straight double and then probably like 50, 30 to 50 % over the next, each year for the next two years. And then now I'm probably in a little more steady state, like growth path of like maybe 10 or 15 % a year, which is great. So this year, like,

My goal is to make the same or a little more than last year, but work dinner 15 % less. Totally. And yeah, it's like, I'm kind of an employee of my own business. Yeah. So like, I don't make that much. Are you an escort? Not yet. Okay, dude. I signed up for it last year. We talked about this and it was just like, I just, yeah, I'm fixing all of that. Yeah. The books and everything is going to be crystal for this year. Yeah. Dude, the fake it till you make it, man. It comes on the business side too, you know, it's like, get the bigger account first, get the...

get the tax stuff set up, you know, cause then when you do make it, you know, you're already, you've got the background stuff sorted. Dude. Yeah. It's hard. You have to like sacrifice some things that matter, but you're like, I think I can do without it for now. And then you figure out you really needed it. It's like the least unsexy thing to buy, you know, like paying an accountant. I don't know. I'm trying to compare it to something. I don't know what it's like buying like a camera bag or something. Yeah. You're like, you just take it. You're like, God, I can't believe I spent a thousand dollars on a couple of stands, but.

Seth Lowe (50:03.47)
So dumb yeah, yeah, like what what are we doing? Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah Yeah, dude So yeah s -corp man get it done. You have an accountant. Yep Yeah, we just switched all of our stuff over recently to a whole team And it's gonna be awesome. I'm very excited That's great. Yeah, I just I wouldn't say put like a ton of time into that but I definitely you know Do a little reading on like what are some ways I can save money as an s -corp and what are some?

good questions to be asking my accountant or whoever and you know, I mean, it's your money, you wanna keep it. Yeah, yeah, literally, and taxes are getting worse. Dude. It's like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Get a kid, man. You got a little kid deduction. That's a good idea. Maybe, yeah, I'll just jump into that one. Just go straight for it. Let's get that going. Yeah, it's a yearly deduction. Are you, do you think much about saving, like, for the future right now, or are you just solely focused on growth, like 100 %?

reinvesting into the business and employees or you putting what you do like, you know, solo 401k or Roth IRA or anything like that. So yeah, personally, I have like my own Roth. Like the business we don't offer other than like some health benefits. We don't have any other like, I don't know, financial investment plans for people that work here. But yeah, so personally, I have my own kind of investments that I kind of just plan for retirement.

that normal thing. But honestly, a lot of that money, like let's say it's $6 ,000 that you can always add into your Roth. There's times that I'm sitting there, I'm like, dude, I think I could get a better return with my $6 ,000 in my hand today than I could if I let it compound for a long, long time. Just because that $6 ,000 could be a camera that turns into 12 grand. That turns into another this, that. And so it's just trying to think wise and like, what can I do with this money? I love to save.

I love for like, I always plan for a rainy day. Very rarely will you catch me, um, not prepared for something like, yeah. Yeah. Especially like a COVID you're like, you gotta be after seeing what happened with COVID and everybody, like you gotta be this. It's a whole new world, like with, with planning. Dude. So yeah, let's look, okay, let's backtrack. I mean, you essentially jumped out into the, uh, the pool and COVID or maybe like right before, was that, I mean,

Seth Lowe (52:29.646)
When COVID happened or started, how long has you been freelancing? So I just started photography a year before COVID. So 2019, I got my first Canon Mark D4. And you were doing weddings? I was doing weddings. So I mean, weddings just kind of got smacked down, right? So like, I mean, were you like kind of like head scratching or scared? No, so actually most of my weddings kept going. Really? Okay. Which was great. There's a couple of venues that were like, screw COVID, we don't care. And it was like, yeah, let's go. And so we were all getting paid. So that was good. That's awesome.

some like home weddings and whatnot, but I think a lot of opportunity happened during COVID. And because the world shut down, that let me like go learn. I was like, dude, I'm on YouTube practicing, learning at my house. Like figuring that out. But just talking with mentors of like what COVID did, especially on big, big agency level, like with big, big clients, like their marketing budgets like zapped immediately. They just like cut it. They're like, no, we're not doing any advertisement.

We're not doing this. And I was like, Ooh, I don't want to be in that spot to where you have to wait on a phone call if you're going to get your next check. I was like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I had some clients that like just totally dried up during COVID and then came back, you know, a couple of years later. And then I had others that were like, just doubled their spend on stuff. So it was, it all worked out in the end, but it was just a, you know, kind of an interesting year is the best way to say it. Yep. I agree. So you, you're saving for retirement, trying to figure out the gear.

investment thing, you know, I do the same thing. I'm always, you know, looking, okay, should I put this money into an account for the future? Or should I invest in this gear that I can rent back to a client? And what's the better ROI? What makes my life easier versus now versus what might make my life easier in 20 years? You know, it's always hard to find that balance and kind of make the right decision. But you know, I think you have to bet on yourself first and foremost. I think that's so important.

If I could go back, I probably would have started investing in like a, you know, a retirement account a little younger would have made a bigger difference. Like I think I started one when I was like 28 or 29. And I bet like even like a minimal amount, probably like five years earlier would have been pretty awesome. But I was just so focused on everything went back into the business, personal projects, equipment, you know, traveling to pitch myself to clients, you know, every, just everything. Yep. Yeah.

Seth Lowe (54:56.366)
Yes, very similar to you in that I was I was fortunate enough to like start investing young so I started investing in like my Roth around like 21 I think good for you. That's amazing. I Had some good people that were like hey you got to do this in my time in the army I was able like I deployed in 2017. I kind of got a stock away a little goose egg. Okay, which was really nice like you didn't get paid much over there, but

you didn't have to spend much. So you just saved a lot. I bet a lot of people didn't. I mean, good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Most people came home and they bought like a new Mustang and then they're like, Oh, there goes that. And I was like, I don't know what I want to do with this, but I don't want to spend it all. So I got to invest a little bit. And that actually, that savings really helped me start Black Banner. Okay. Because that was some of the like, I can live off this for a long time if I'm really smart. Good for you, dude. Good for you.

Yeah, I always try to kind of run about six months overhead and then everything after that, I either kind of divide out into like either long -term savings or you know, business scaling growth, gear investment kind of stuff. Do you struggle with thinking too much about the business and money side versus the creative side or do you feel like you have a pretty good handle on growth in both areas or do you find yourself hopping back and forth or? I feel like I'm good like 50 -50.

I just realized how important the business side is. And I think even like talking to other freelancers, I would encourage them to learn the business because that's the language that your client speaks. And so if you can speak that language with them, you can negotiate, you can talk prices, it becomes natural. It's not this weird like, what do I charge, what do I say? If you're gonna offer them, give them something that makes them $100 ,000.

and you're asking for $1 ,000, they're probably not gonna go with you, because you're probably too cheap. And so it's like, you just have to figure out the lingo of like, what is business? And so I do think a lot on the business, because that's my role as like the owner. And I gotta take care of my people, so I'm like, I gotta make sure I like keep this going, keep this going. So I think a lot on the business for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think being the cheaper person is almost always detrimental, you know, it either.

Seth Lowe (57:18.958)
Either if you get the job, you just don't end up making as much money. And if you don't get the job, a lot of times it's because they thought you were too cheap and then didn't trust you. Like, you know, there's concern like, well, I know this should cost $20 ,000 to do. They did it at 11. They're missing something or maybe they're not as good as I need. You know, it's, it's, uh, I think you probably lose more jobs being too cheap than being too expensive. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And like anytime, anytime I've bid something high, you know, usually like you kind of know you're okay. This is a good chunk.

for this size of client or this ask. Usually they just ask like, hey, this is a little higher than we expected, why? And you can either explain it and they're usually like, oh, okay. And then from there they can kind of choose, well, okay, well, we wanted to spend 10 % less than this. How do we get there? And you can kind of figure out, well, I can knock a little off here. Maybe we can also save some money by just cutting this from the project specs. And you can find a solution that makes everyone happy where they get what they want, you make the good rate.

the good budget or whatever. Do you? So when you're bidding stuff, you know, your production company to, I would say regional local clients, are they, I mean, this, I just don't even know, you know, within like retainer work, when you're sending out quotes, are you sending out pretty line item detailed stuff, or is it more like, hey, here's, we're going to produce X amount of content for just this, this cost, or do they like to see like, hey, here's how much he's.

paying crew and here's how much he is allocated to post and here's how much music licensing we're paying for. Like what is it just depend on the client? It depends on the client. I normally like to line item everything. Okay. So if there's a role that I'm playing as like four hats, like director, producer, editor, I'm going to line item those. Um, and that kind of helps my clients understand like what production looks like, Hey, there's these multiple hats, multiple roles that I could hire out or contract out or bring internal or whatever. Um,

but I like to at least have like pre -production, production, post -production at a minimum and then a production fee. So those are my normal line items and then I break out inside of those what it entails. And so yeah, I like a line item because that makes more, it's more digestible for a bigger project. Some clients, if we handshake a price, I'll just be like, the budget is this, you said this.

Seth Lowe (59:46.894)
It's just one item that says complete this with all the deliverables and they're like, that's all they want to see. They don't, but yeah, bid is a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah. I would say I've done a little bit of that. There's been a few times with like a client where like we're kind of having that discovery call phase and I'm like, I kind of know what they want and maybe, or maybe they like have a rough idea what they want and they need a little hand holding to kind of see like, Hey, here's what we can create. And so I'll say like, Hey, you know, we can do.

these various outputs and you're roughly looking at this much money. That's a great starting point, but then I always try to line item it out because the more detailed you are, there's more opportunity for conversation about why certain things cost certain amounts of money. And it's just, knowledge is power. Yep, no, I totally agree. I think you're on. That's big time and that takes time to learn. That's a beast, pricing things out and understanding what people cost and for what roles and whatnot.

That just takes time to learn. One of the best pieces of advice I heard really, before I was even freelancing was you can't afford your own services. If you can afford yourself, then you're not expensive enough. And I'm like, well, I couldn't afford to hire me. So, you know, cause if you can afford, you know, if you're like, you know what I mean? If you can afford to hire yourself, there's no way you're going to make any money. Yeah. That's an interesting quote. I've never, I've never heard that. That's good. I like it. Yeah. I mean, could you afford to hire your own business for what you do?

Seth Lowe (01:01:17.134)
Ah.

Boom, dude, you're onto something. Sweet, let's go. Yeah. Do you know who Chris Dew is?

Is he a YouTuber? Uh, I mean, I think he owns like an agency. I just, I watched some of his videos every now and then I, he has like a design, he has a design agency, but he's a big video educator. Yeah. Future. Yeah. The future. Yeah. You've probably seen that video then where he talks about, um, you kind of just mentioned it like pricing, like, Hey, you know, it's like, it's like how to turn like a $4 ,000 job into a $16 ,000 job or something is the title of the video. And it's like, okay, you've been hired to design something or shoot something. Well, what are all the roles? You know, there's like,

someone has to actually shoot it, someone has to edit it, someone has to produce it and handle the client interaction relationship side of it. And then there's the expense of doing the job, like the equipment costs or software costs, whatever, hard drives, whatever that looks like. And so just line out any of those things explains the cost of it. But then you can also start to scale and hire that out. If I just say, oh, I can make this video for...

And then I get another job at the same time. I can't do both, you know, but if I say like, okay, here's the shoot cost and here's the post cost and here's the management cost or whatever. Yep. Then I can start to scale and be like, well, if I get another job that comes up and I can no longer edit this other one, I still have enough money to pay the market rate to have someone else to edit it. Yes. Yes. He explained it in 30 seconds and I just took like two minutes, but that last part of just the, if you have to like outsource this.

Seth Lowe (01:02:53.998)
Do you have the budget to do so? And I've been able to operate that way because sometimes I do get overwhelmed with projects and I've taken too much on and I'm like, luckily I priced them out correctly and I can go to a friend or a buddy that's an editor or whatever and I'm like, hey, I have this project, do you have the availability? Here's the budget, I allotted this much money to you, do you want it? And that has been like life saving. Yeah, when I do video stuff,

If it's direct to client and I'm responsible for post, I always just estimate it to where I'm hiring someone else to do the post. And if, you know, if I have the time and I want to do the post, great, I will. But usually I, the answer is no to both of those. And so then I can just outsource it and the job gets done and you know, everyone's happy. Yeah. Massive. I'm with it. If you had to start fresh today, what would you do differently? Um, I wouldn't do a lot differently. I would have a good camera.

that shoots high enough quality, that matches what everybody needs. And I would double down on business and I would buy more lights instead of camera gear. And I would learn how to use the lights. Like know how to light. You can do so much for so little, like for real, if you really learn it. I think the big barrier is knowledge. So I would learn more and talk to more business owners. Learn, learn, learn, learn. So that'd be my advice.

Do you have any go -to resources for the business side of things? And they don't have to be even industry related, just general business knowledge. Yeah, there's a podcast called Blink Canvas. It's these guys that own Iconic. It's an art, they call it affordable luxury art that goes on walls and it's kind of motivational. And they have a podcast, they have a lot of business owners on there that are doing really big things, big exits, you know, like.

hundreds of millions of dollar exits, like selling their businesses. When I was in the younger phases, hearing these stories of what's possible encouraged me to go and keep trying and be like, I know what's out there, I know I can get there, I know I can get there. And that kind of fed my belief that I could do it, because I hear these other people doing it. So I think that would be a resource is, sometimes just listen to other people that have done it and take that encouragement and run with it.

Seth Lowe (01:05:19.086)
I'm going to check that out. That sounds really good. There's a, a book I read several years ago by Richard Branson called screw it. Let's do it. And I just, I just loved his, like, I'm just going to figure, jump in and figure it out. And I don't have to have all the answers, you know, before I get in, because I'll never, you know, you'll never have all the answers to something until you're just actively doing it. So you might as well just get involved and figure it out while you're doing it. Yep. They say like in business, you have to be, if you're 70 % sure that it's going to work, like pull the trigger.

Cause that's as sure as you'll ever get. You're never going to be a hundred percent. So just like 70%, I think it's going to work. Pull it. Yep. That's great. I love that. Um, do you think your career and success are a result of luck or hard work? Both. Both, both, both, both. Um, you know that saying like the harder I work, the luckier I get kind of thing. Uh, I think that plays a lot to do with it. Um, there are always going to be opportunities and people that come across your, like come across your path.

Do you have the skills and the knowledge and the ability to help them where they're at? So if a job comes your way and you don't have the skills Like you just haven't learned it yet that that opportunity is gonna pass but there'll be more opportunities So it's like how fast can you learn because those opportunities are coming every day. You just may not see them yet. Yep. Yeah, that's great Well, dude, thank you so much for your time. It's been

fun chatting and just hearing how you're growing and it's exciting to watch and just see what you're up to. So hopefully we can check in again on this show in like a year or something and see if some of those goals have come true and where you're at. Yeah, bro. Seth, I appreciate it, dude. Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks so much for your time. Dude, awesome. All right, bro. See ya.

Seth Lowe (01:07:07.31)
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of The Solo Creative. If you enjoyed it, I hope you share it. And you can connect with us on Instagram at thesolocreativepod. Hit us up with any questions or suggestions for show guests. Thanks and have a great week.