Jesse Oxford - Thinking like a leader

Jesse and I talk about his transition from freelancer to building a production company and then specialized agency, and the mentality it takes to build with purpose. 

Interested in coming on the show, or know someone who would be a good fit? Email us here - seth@sethlowephoto.com

Follow the show on Instagram - @thesolocreativepod

Transcript

Seth Lowe (00:01.326)
Hey, welcome to The Solo Creative, a podcast for freelance filmmakers and photographers who want to become more successful at the business of freelancing. I'm your host, Seth Lowe.

Seth Lowe (00:16.494)
Hey, welcome to the solo creative. This week we're talking with Jesse Oxford, who is a Chicago based, director, agency owner creative. we'll, we'll kind of get into that a little bit as we go, but I'm really excited to have them on the podcast. He does some really great work and he's just a great guy. So how's it going? It's going great. Excited to, yeah, to chat about stuff. Lots of things happening in the industry these days. So yeah, it's, it's been a kind of an interesting year already. So it's June. What's what's, how's your summer looking right now? Well, in a few weeks, I,

I'm going to France for a month. So that would be like nice. I'm I'm really into cycling and and my wife is too. So we're going to be watching every stage of the Tour de France. That's so cool. And following it around. So it's kind of like a life dream. Yeah. I don't know if we'll ever get this opportunity again, but we had the freedom in our schedule. So we decided to jump at it. That's so cool. Are you going to like creating content around it and like intentional content or just kind of capture some stuff as you go for fun or anything like that? Like I have like

Like a DJ, like Osmo pocket. Yeah. So I'll probably just bring that and just kind of see, but like, I don't want to feel like I have to do it. You know? So, I'll probably just see like, you know, if there are like our situations where like, I've never seen this shot before I'll have the camera to be able to do it, but otherwise probably just try to leave it with my phone somewhere else. Yeah. Those things are honestly incredible. We used one on a job the other day, or I was just trying to get some like really small, fast, quick stuff. And I was like, wow, this, the footage looks really good.

I hope they come out with something like between that and the 40 because the 40 is sick, but it's like for travel stuff, it's a little too cumbersome and awkward. It's just awkward to travel with. Yeah. And if they could come out with like a super 35 little stick thing, it was killer. I would, I'd be on that pretty fast. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Is that gonna happen? Yeah. Like either that or either that or DJ is going to get banned from America. So that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I know it's crazy. Like all of the, just the conversations about stuff and everyone on social and they're having to publish all of this little like, like notices, like this is what it means for our customers. Cause everybody's like, my gosh. Yeah. Do you think of it? It's like trying to piggyback on like the tick tock ban and just kind of go after all those companies or it feels like kind of like that. I feel like there's just distrust, I think in general, just like, you know, interculture relief for better, maybe, or

Seth Lowe (02:39.15)
maybe for worse. But yeah, I think it starts us to, you know, just like a I think for like Americans, there were periods where we developed a lot of that in house. And like now we don't have like a lot of that technology, at least at the scale as what like DJI and other companies have been able to do, which is like really, really innovative stuff. So be be awesome if everybody was able to make stuff like that. So yeah, it's weird how like, like with TikTok, like I don't use TikTok, but

You know, like people can just go to Instagram or, you know, YouTube shorts or something else will pop up. But with DJI, it's like, I don't even know what I would buy. I don't know what they're even, I don't think there is anything, right? Maybe. I don't know. I've seen like other knockoffs, but it looks exactly like the Mavic and you're like, it's still, it's like, you know, it's like, I'm like, yeah, I've, it's not really an alternative in my mind at all. There's not a lot of like for like stuff. Yeah. So, or like if instead of like DJI acquiring

like Hasselblad's technology, if it had been the other way around. yeah. Maybe okay. Thought process on it may have been like, okay, cool. We're fine with all these drones. Yeah. But yeah, just kind of wonder how that worked. They'll probably just like make an American company of it. And it's the same products and they'll just like move some servers over here or something and pay them, pay the right public official and it'll all be okay. Give some, give the right person the right stock options. They're like, suddenly I feel better about this. Yeah.

That's how you'd like us though. how, how long have you been? I mean, I don't really know anything about you. What's your like, what's your backstory? How'd you get into the industry? Yeah. So, in, so in high school, I had a friend whose dad owned a radio station and my dad worked there. And like, we used to just like, be able to go for like high school assignments and stuff.

we would go in and be like, let's create like a radio program. And so we'd be like in the studio. They had like all of the sound bed choices that we could have. We wrote like a script and so like for high school, like reports, we would write like a script, do it and then go out in a field and like reenact and take all of these photos and make it black and white and have like a little like a Ken Burns thing. So this is like in the 90s and like the mid. Yeah. OK. So it was really exciting to have access to that type of technology. And then

Seth Lowe (05:06.51)
That same friend also got into like 3d animation and stuff. I think like the program that like we were like high schoolers, not professionals in the nineties. So it's like Rhino 3d was this like program. Yeah. And I saw him use that and I was like, this is so cool. I suck at 3d. Like even today trying to work with three accesses. I'm like, I it's like my mind can't like, yeah, I can't think that way. I even like Photoshop 3d, 3d, which is really basic. I'm like, forget it. I'm out. Yup. So

I was like involved with that, did graphic design as a hobby, was like a musician and then like a theater nerd or whatever. It's like when I went to college, I was a theater major. So my major was technical theater. So it was like lighting, scenic design, directing, not the acting side of it. So when I got in into the film industry, I was always way more comfortable in the camera department and with the trucks than what I was with the actors.

So, it took me like, like, like a longer time to feel like, okay, great. I'm like, I know how to work with actors to give like, you know, direction in a way that they need to hear it. But, so I came up through the technical arts in theater and then I was a classical music composition minor. Okay. so music theory and all kinds of stuff like that. So that's cool. like for my internship, between

My junior and senior year, I applied for internships at the Royal Shakespeare theater, in the UK and as a mega church in Chicago. And I decided to go like work at like a mega church. So like I worked, doing like a lot of production, like as you can imagine churches with the absence of people and all of the technology and stuff that goes into, what they do on like, like a weekly basis. So that internship, turned into a job offer at the end of.

Of the summer. so I didn't go back to college for my senior year. I just started to work. And, while I was there, a person gave me my first, Mac book pro. And I think it was like a Canon GL one camcorder that was like a DV, you know, like all of those. Yep. And, and they were like, make a video. So as I started to do that and learn how to use like the software and all that kind of stuff, I realized like,

Seth Lowe (07:26.574)
film is a combination of all of these things that I love. It's like the lighting, staging and direction of theater. It's like music, it's graphic design. It's like telling a story in fun, creative ways altogether. And I was like, this is actually like, like a super medium because it combines all of these other disciplines together. and yeah, so like I fell in love with it. And like, in addition to producing

Like live events on the stage was also producing the content that would show on the screens at them as well. Okay. That's cool. So it's like an interesting step into it coming from like the theater side. Were you even aware of like sort of film production or kind of commercial film production all in college? So I grew up in Delaware and Maryland and I lived overseas for a bit at times, but like it was never a thing that I thought was even possible to be like doing filmmaking or video.

Unless you worked for like the local news channel. Yeah. So it hadn't even crossed my mind. I think today, like high school students, there's a lot more inexpensive resources to be able to start doing that. Even on your phone. Like you could probably do way more on your phone today than I could as like a 20 year old, you know, like at, like at the time because of the resources. But it never even like, yeah, to be like, I mean, to be like, I'm going to make, you know, I'm going to be the next Spielberg was like, yeah, right. You know, like whatever. So,

Yeah. So that's kind of, I just kind of fell into it because somebody gave me the tools to do it, but otherwise it wouldn't, but it had been something I would have ever written down as a dream. Yeah. That's cool. My, my connection to film is, also through music theory. I was taking music theory classes and like privately, I was homeschooled. So I was just taking these theory classes at a local guy and he was really into like technology and it was like probably 2004.

And he had a Mac book pro and I like G two or something like that, whatever they were called back then. And I'd never used a Mac before. And I mean, it kind of started as me taking music theory lessons and quickly evolved into like just computer technology and like he had a camera and he gave me, I don't know if it was a DVD or VHS copy of the, Wilco documentary. I'm trying to break your heart. Okay. And he's like, this is your homework this week. Go watch this documentary and.

Seth Lowe (09:48.558)
I watched it. I was like, Whoa, you can just make a movie like of your friends with your friends. Like, and it just like, like a real light bulb moment for me. So yeah, kind of cool. Yeah. It's cool. Just like, yeah, how like being exposed to music. Cause like, there are so many like a filmmakers who like, I know who like, it's like surprising, like, no, I was like in a band or like I was in music from like, everyone like Evan, like a Borsier to the Quentin Brogan, like

All these other guys that I talked to are like, like role, like a surface, like, and I actually feels like everybody's like in music and then got into filmmaking afterwards. So I think everyone has show at least like, you know, 95 % of the people on the show have had like a music background or church background. Yeah. Do you think, go ahead. I don't know. Nothing. I was going to make a joke. That probably wasn't funny. So go ahead. I was just going to say, I think about sometimes like,

I was playing in a band and then I got into photography and photography felt cool to me because I could just do what I wanted and I didn't have to have the opinion of like four other band members. yeah. But like ironically, like as a commercial, like sort of artist, you know, all everything you do has like 14 people's opinions attached to it. It's like the exact opposite. You know, it's like kind of funny how I thought it was like this liberating thing where I was getting away from everyone's opinion on how I wanted to create something. And now I'm all my stuff has everyone's opinion. Yeah.

Yeah. Like we probably all start because we have like an independent, like artist street. And then at the end of the day, when you start progressing in your career, you're like, no, what I really need is I need to be a good leader. And because like, I have to like lead all the people on my team and learn how to interact with people who are above me. And yeah. Yeah. Like if you're a great, like, I'm not sure if you can become a great filmmaker without having great leadership skills. Is that when did you have that realization?

I feel like, I think like as the crews that you work on start to become larger and it's less reliant on you. Like, like I know for me, when I like transition out of having like a full -time staff, like a position to going freelance and then eventually realizing that that could develop into an agency. knowing that.

Seth Lowe (12:08.462)
I can build like a career for myself. but like, I know that like, I can make a lot more of an impact in my work and have like a lot more depth when I'm relying on more skills than just my own. And that's where collaboration kicks in. I think that there's kind of like a curve in most artists careers where when you're early on, you're highly collaborative because you're making stuff with your friends. And then as you're trying to start

To get more opportunities and grow up. There's like a point where you intentionally start like to work more alone and like not collaborate like as much. And then as you develop more confidence and you're like, okay, I'm like sustainable in my career. I'm not like feeling like I'm in survival mode. You'll like flip back and be more open to collaborating with other people that you may have felt more competitiveness with them in the past.

And like, I think that that at least has been true of like me. and yeah, I think that there are aspects of that that are like, like normal. and then I think there are certain like aspects of that where we all have to go through a maturing process. And part of that is like having the inner confidence in our, in who we are as people to like, allow us to allow like other voices to speak into that without feeling like our identity is threatened.

I completely agree with that for people listening the curve Jesse kind of described like goes up a little bit dips a little bit and then climbs again almost like a Inverted s curve. Yeah, you know, what's interesting. I don't my camera's like out of focus What's interesting is There's someone I follow on Instagram I'm like totally spaced on his name. You would know him. He posted like a similar career growth curve and it was like the same line and it was like

Your initial, like you get into something and you learn a lot about it. So you accelerate really quickly. And then you hit this point where like you realize you actually don't know anything. And so like you regress a little bit and you go through this sort of Valley of like, can I actually do this? Do I have what it takes? and it takes like the grit kicks in and you actually regress a little bit. Cause you're like learning now, like the actual hard parts of it, not just like the easy excite, like the excitement's gone and you have to like really work and fight for what you want. And if you can get through that, I think he called it, think the uncanny Valley.

Seth Lowe (14:30.286)
And if you get through that uncanny valley, then you accelerate again, back into that next stage of growth. And I think those cycles happen, but it's, I mean, the exact same curb you just described where like, you get really collaborative and you work with your buddies and it's fun and exciting and you don't care about money or you're just trying to like make something cool and you're excited. And then you want to like figure out your own. Career a little bit and your own voice. And so you, I mean, I've totally been through that. I know I've never thought of it like that, but I've totally been through it. So it's cool to hear you describe it. And then you.

Get collaborative with those people. Again, he started to grow again. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Like the author, like a Richard Rohr, he just, he's, he has a quote that says, you have to have an ego to lose one. And I'm like, so that's great. Great excuse. I should just be like an asshole and be like, have like a real huge ego all the time. Because like, cause then I can become humble like after that. But I think for me and my journey was like, I had to get to a point where like, I had to realize that like I had an ego.

To be like, wait, I'm going to make like a decision to step back from that. and I think that like, as I work with like, like a lot of folks in their twenties who start to go into your thirties, I think that that's usually like a season where you don't feel like an idiot anymore and you feel confident, but the people you work with oftentimes don't give you the like voice or the trust or respect that you feel like you've like earned now. So then you kind of have to step up like, like a bit more strongly.

And then in your mid th like thirties and forties, because you've, you've been around longer and you probably have a few more gray hairs. Yeah. The people you work with naturally trust and respect you because of your age. And then you feel like you don't have to push as much anymore. So it's either, it's easier to be more like, I'm not trying to get respect because I naturally get it. Yeah. I definitely can relate to that. I mean, just, I remember turning, you know, 30 I'm 36.

But I remember like right when I hit about 30, it felt like I just kind of like had more respect from like my peers and clients. And like, I just got less pushback. It was just kind of funny how that works. But do you think I'd also, when I hit 30, I'd been in the industry for like probably seven, six or seven years at that point as a freelancer. How, how much do you think that sort of respect and how you described it as maybe like confidence and getting less pushback. Do you think that's relative to,

Seth Lowe (16:52.494)
Experience in the industry or like age, like if someone jumps out at 40 to start freelancing, do you think they maybe already have like they've already been through that? And so they're not going to fight for like respect, even though they've maybe only been a freelancer for like a year or maybe like they're kind of new to the industry or you, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Seth Lowe (17:13.902)
I wouldn't like tie it like a hundred percent to age.

it probably has more to do with, okay. So like it could be two things and I'm not sure what the balance is. So one is it's an inner confidence in yourself that other people pick up on. Like he's comfortable in his own skin. He's not worried about this. When I raise questions, he's not defensive. He like engages with me and just helps me to feel.

Like more confident because I can see the ease that he has and, or she has in what, what he's going through. So I think people pick up on that inner confidence, not like arrogance, but when you raise an issue with the creative or with the production approach, I don't feel threatened or attacked. I'm like, great point. Yeah. We should totally fix that. And then just do it. Not that I have to be perfect. Okay. Yeah. the other thing is, is as you've had more time in doing things,

Your reputation and brand can proceed you. So that way, like people are coming to you because they want to work with you, not because of like, you've already pitched this creative idea because they're like, I've seen your work. It's good. I want to work with you regardless of what the concept is. Not like I got to push this concept through and have like a 20 slide deck. I've noticed that as I've gotten older, my like pitches have gotten shorter. Yeah. And I'm like, am I just getting like lazier and creative? And I'm like, I don't rely on the pitch to sell me anymore.

I like same here. I'm confident. And like, I can talk about it and like you've seen my work. I don't have to take 20 slides to explain this to you. Yeah. So also I think there's like a certain amount of confidence tied to, like, if you've been doing it for a long time and you have clients and you're busy, you're not desperate. And that comes across, you know, like if I pitch an idea now, it's like, Hey, this is an idea I have. And I'd love to collaborate with you on it and work on it, but I don't like need this. I'm here because I think it could be good for you. And like, let's figure out a way that like,

Seth Lowe (19:12.718)
You know, we both benefit from this, but if, like, if you don't want to do it, that's okay. I'm not like losing sleep or not paying my rent next month or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like in, in sales at ox, like what we've discovered is like, we, we tend to sell the best when we don't need the deals. Yeah. Yeah. Which is crazy. Cause you're like, like when we don't need the deal, that's what we need. Or when we need the deals is when we need, we need to close, but yeah, it always helps us to, to, to walk in and not actually need it. Cause I'm like, all right, that's fine. Bye. And then they're like, yeah.

It's like a girl or a guy who you want to go on a date with you like needs the date, you know, and you're like, wait a second. I don't feel as like special anymore. Yeah, totally. I was talking with a buddy about that. They have a bag. Cause like, I was like, so like just nervous. I had no confidence around girls. And I was like 19, 20 years old. Just like, I mean, zero confidence. Like, man, if I had like half the confidence just I have, it's like a, you know, a 35 year old, I could like ask any girl out. And if she said no, I'd have been like, okay, that's fine. I wouldn't been like all, you know, bummed out and depressed for like a month or something.

Yeah. Staring at the ceiling and you're writing some open song about it. how long like were you, freelancing before you kind of started deciding to build an agency or was that always the intention? And it just maybe took a little time. No, I like to say I started Oxxon accident. so in, on January 1st of 2010 is when I was like, I'm a hundred percent freelance and

sat at my desk, probably not on the first, cause that's a national holiday, but like on the second sat at my desk, you know, getting like making like the posts, you know, trying to get the social out there. So everybody knew what was going on in my life. And my wife came home from work and she was like, how was it? And I was like, I'm never going to get hired for anything ever again. This is it. And then like the phone just kept ringing like after that. So it was like, cool. So like, I kind of like was like,

Me as like a freelance director, creative director. Then I started just to bring on more like regular like support. So like it could be like an assistant or hiring a producer who I wanted to work with and produce all of my stuff and kind of growing to like a team of like three or four. And that was like probably like maybe like 2013. OK. And then in 2010, sorry, I think it was like 29. OK, so you're like kind of on that edge of like.

Seth Lowe (21:37.23)
People you're an adult now. You're not, you're not like a just out of college. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. My voice was probably still high. beard was a little, I think, I think I was like 29, like at that time. and I, yeah. So I had that, had like a few bumps with just trying to realize like, wait, what you're running here is actually like a business and other people's careers or, and their family's livelihood is depending on working with you.

And that was kind of like, like, okay. There's like more at stake than just me like anymore in the way that I do things. Like, so that's when I kind of switched into if, if I am sick or I get hit by a car, I will want everybody to still have jobs. So it's important for me to build this beyond my own skills and time availability and reputation. That's cool. I started to intentionally bring on people who,

were better than me at things. who, yeah, who like, like I believed in and I was excited to see how their career developed and to who, who, who offered skills that like I didn't, but I knew that like the clients would need and slowly started to build that up. so like built that from kind of like 2015 to 2019, like that was kind of our, our philosophy and growing with that. if there were skills,

or tools and gear that we used on every job. The thought process was to have that in -house. So to own it instead of running it every time. And if there were editors and other directors and filmmakers that we like enjoyed working with all the time, let's try to hire them all together. In 2019, we had experienced a number of ups and downs in sales and realized, hey, I think as excited

like as we were to all work together under the same roof on staff, like all the time, we can't like, we're staffed for probably like peak season at ox instead of like staffing for like the bottom of seasons. And it made it really hard to sustain payroll and stuff like that. Sure. It goes. And that was just like a learning that every leader and like, and, and business owner.

Seth Lowe (23:58.286)
Has to go, but it's always like hard when it's like your friends and stuff who you work with. And then you're starting to have to make some hard choices about totally. How do we engage together in the future? Cause I can't keep the promise I made to you, you know, how many people has nothing to do with your work either. It just has everything to do with like, what can we afford? Yeah. So how many people did you have sort of at that in 2019? I think like at our peak, we had like, like a 17 or 18. wow. Okay. That's that's good. I had like, like a conversation with like,

like a photographer who we were collaborating on a job. We're working in the studio. Me and him were together. And he's like, so how many people get working here? And I'm like, 16, 17, 18, something like that. And he was like, that sounds exhausting. Yeah. And I'm like, from like a leadership standpoint, it's like a heavy weight to carry, but like, it's awesome being able to go to work with your friends every day and to like, I'll be like together in the same place and like, all have these ideas. And you're like, great, let's create them all together and developing like a synergy towards all that. So in 20.

Like a 19, we made a shift from, building up like an internal ox, like staff team that like did all of our project to having more of a collaborator mindset and being able to, to, to keep like the core, like business function internal at ox and our creative direction internal, but all like all of the other roles, even if they were people that, that we wanted to work with.

like all the time. And in many cases, we still did. It was just as a 1099. Like as opposed to like a staff, a staff role. Yeah, that makes sense. Like, I think that's probably the most logical way to approach that. And then COVID happened. And the decision that we made in 2019, we would have had to make anyway in 2020, just because of the way that the business went. Yeah. So

Yeah. So that's kind of like our structure and model. It's not like, you know, trying to like, there isn't like a perfect size, but I think that like for any, like a company to not always think that like growth has to mean always adding more people and getting like bigger and bigger, you're able to get smaller and be growing. I think at the same time. but, yeah, just like trying to honor the relationships that you have,

Seth Lowe (26:19.918)
Being able to make staff and gear choices that are kind of like optimized for like a rainy day as opposed to optimized for when the sun's out. I think as like a leader and business owner allows you to honor people better. and you probably sleep a little bit, but better too. Yeah, that makes sense. do you, do you feel like when you got to like that scale of like the 17 or even past like 10, do you feel like the, you were

Kind of putting this role where you had to run the business more and maybe you were taking taken out of creative more. Was that, did that come up or did you have, did you have a pretty good system where people handled the business for you and you could stay really close to creative or what was that like? Yeah. So, to, to keep it like to skip ahead, like a bit in the story in 2021, I made a decision that, I'm not going to be CEO forever in my own company and.

by 2024, I want to not be CEO. So I was like, great, who can like who is the next person to take the right reigns from me? Our goal as like a company is to last for 100 years. So we serve organizations in the world who do good. So like cause based organizations, and as I look at all the other agencies, there isn't any other creative organization with 100 years of experience to be able to like create advice and Yeah, just to bring

that like expertise to them. And I want Ox to be the first. I was pretty cool. Yeah. The reason why a lot of organizations don't survive in the long -term is because they can't transcend the reputation of their founder. So I knew that it was really important for me early on to not stay too long. we've heard of founders like a, like a syndrome. So the reason why a business fails is because the founder lacks the skills to take it to the next stage.

They're a great starter or they're very product or like they're a great filmmaker, but they can't run a business type things. And that's why like a lot of them failed. And I think a lot of the, the lackings of that, like in me were, were evident, like as time started to go on. So I was like, the skills I have are optimized to start Ox. But if we're going to keep, keep going forward and the last for a long time in the future, I don't have, have those skills. And honestly, like, I would love to step back and start doing more of the creative stuff, which is why I started to do like,

Seth Lowe (28:41.486)
Like all of this in the first, in the first place. So as of January of 2024, I worked in the business, on films as like a chief, chief catalyst helping to do innovation and stuff, but I'm not the CEO and I'm the owner. And part of that is to what, to what you said as time it goes on, your role in the company is every day, you don't set your own schedule or to do list.

Your to -do list is the worst problems in the company and making the decision that nobody else wants to make or is equipped to make. And that's what's on your desk every day. it's needed. It's important. And I've enjoyed it, doing it in seasons, but I know that like my best contribution is being an idea guy and making stuff. so, yeah, like I like, I'm, I'm a leader. I love to build teams.

I love to cast a vision for the future and I'm going to keep doing that in Ox, but from a day to day organizational standpoint of like, Hey, how do we structure like our company's work flow in a way that's really great for parents on our team? Yeah. there are people who are better at making those choices than what I am. And I, I've been really just excited to see a lot of the like developments that have happened as I stepped out of that seat. and just kind of seen.

what the wisdom and, power of like, of other folks on our team have had made a to contribute towards that. That's really cool. when you started looking for that CEO person, did you, look for someone like in industry or out of industry that could just bring business advice and maybe sort of be maybe a little bit oblivious or detached from the creative. you know, what did you look for? Yeah. So, like

For me, I always feel like it's better to promote from the inside than hire from the outside. A person who knows the culture, who knows the people, who everybody else in the company, if you were to announce it would be like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. What's for lunch? You know, like, it's not a surprise. It's not a shakeup. It's not like, whatever. So like, I like,

Seth Lowe (31:01.198)
Was looking for a person who is thoughtful, who asks really good questions, who people inherently trust, who like understand what the unique like DNA of Ox is and who our staff respects and who our clients respect. And yeah. And so like, like Tony's sorentino, who was our chief, our chief strategy officer and who had worked at Ox for seven years, we had.

Like a conversation with him. It's like, Hey, like, here's a dream I have for you. I don't know if this aligns with what your dreams are for your career. What do you think? And he's like, I love that. And I'm like, sweet. And when we announced it to everybody, like internally in the company and to our clients, they're all like, this is awesome. I couldn't think of like a better way you should have done this years ago. No, they didn't say that. But honestly, it was like so overwhelmingly positive. That's like, this is awesome. So like,

I'm not sure if that is like, I think that that's like a luxury. and I'm not sure if like every transition in a company can always be like that. but I think that that is what the dream is. And I feel, I feel really blessed to have him. So that's great. That's really cool. you, you said this a little bit a minute ago and it was actually one of the four questions I had for you, which was working in your business versus on your business. do you like prioritize one over the other, or is it just sort of,

Kind of an ebb and flow of what's important in the moment or do you even think about that? Yeah. So, there was a article or like blog posts to go way back in the day. I may as well be saying it was an eight track. If I say it's a blog post. but there was a post, I think it was like in 2009 that came out that talked about the difference between a maker's schedule and a manager's schedule. I'm not sure if you've heard of that, but essentially like you guys can Google it and find it makers schedule versus manager schedule.

But the nutshell of it is, a manager is able to make use of like any amount of time in their day. So if they have like a 10 minute break in between a meetings, they're able to like pop up their email, fire off a whole bunch of things, be on Slack, like answer a few things like any amount of time has helped for a creative. I can't do anything with less than 30 minutes.

Seth Lowe (33:17.39)
Yeah, like, yeah, I told you asked me to edit like I've got a five minute break. I'm going to dive into this edit. I haven't even launched the program after five. Yeah, it's like, like you're there. You're like, where did I leave off? You're like, yeah, you got to get, I got to watch it. Yeah. Yeah. Watch the edit three times, make a list of what you want to do next. And then it's probably like 35 minutes at that point. And then you're like, cool. Great. So like for me to make any reasonable amount of progress on any creative thing.

Ideally, I need 90 minutes. Like after like, like a 90 minutes, I've done a heavy lift. I'm probably a little bit distracted. So I should walk up and grab a cup of coffee and come back to my desk and do another 90 minutes. So that is kind of like the fight of every, like a business owner. And for me, if I don't start my day making, but I, if, I can't ever like, like

I can switch from making to managing, but if I start with managing, my mind will not switch back to making. yeah. I never even thought about that. That's really interesting though. It's like this, like if I, so if I were to wake up at this, I'm at my desk at 7 a and I start by doing managing things like firing off all these emails, trying to answer questions about this, like client contract or like an overage and how I'm going to do all that. And then I'm like, no, I'm going to write a script. I'm like, forget about it.

I either have to like stand up and go for a walk for half an hour to reset my brain and then sit down and I could write a script. But if I start my day writing the script or doing the hardest edit that I have to or dreaming of a new concept and then like I can immediately switch into like answering emails or Slack or typing up a budget. So yeah, for sure. Okay. I had to really protect my mornings and do what's the hardest creative thinking that I have to do today and always start with that because

yeah, I can't, I can't do managing and flip back to creating.

Seth Lowe (35:23.87)
you're on mute, I think, for a second.

Seth Lowe (35:29.326)
I never thought about that intentionally, but as you're saying that I'm like, that is so true. Like days where I start out, like in the first hour of my day is like process, like contract estimate emails, da da da da kind of stuff. Getting over into like creative thought is exhausting. Like it's just, I can't do it. I have to go like go to the gym or something. But if I start my day, like just boom, I'm going to sit down at this edit and work for an hour. It's awesome. I get into the flow right away and then I can get lunch. I can sit down and.

you know, reply to the emails or something like that. But it's harder because for me, like, and like you just said, getting into the creative task is like, it takes like a half hour just to like get into the thing and get into the rhythm of doing it versus and it feels like, you know, like, unrewarding for that first like half hour 45 minutes, because you're just kind of like figuring out where you were and kind of like reassessing the work you did yesterday. And then like you hate the thing you did yesterday. And it's just like this mental battle, but like

If you start out your day, like you just replied to a couple of emails, like you feel and like check QuickBooks for five minutes. You feel like you've done something to been productive, even though it doesn't, you know, yeah, I don't know. That's a good, that's a good time. And I'm not sure if this is only true for like creatives who are business owners or if people who are like accountants and business owners, but like when I'm creating at its best, it's like stress free, like it's fun. It's play.

But like when I'm managing and a lot of other, there's usually a little bit of like worry, anxiety, stress involved in that. And that's like the opposite of what I need to be able to create. so like, I'm not sure if like accountants are like, I can't, I can't balance a budget. If, if I had just gotten like a stressful call from a client, cause it just doesn't connect with my soul. They probably don't say that I could be wrong. but yeah, just like, it's like a unique thing for us that I think it's just important to be aware of.

But like, you can't always control it. Cause like an angry client calls, you've got to pick up. Yeah. You know, you got to deal with it for sure. Yeah. And you're like, I spent it planning to spend the next four hours like editing and the first half an hour, you got a call from like a stressful client. And then you're like, so frustrated. You're like, the rest of my day is shot. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I'm not going to come back to this. I usually, I just get up and leave and I'm like, I kind of did the same thing. I just go work out or something and like go for whatever it is. It's like, there's, there's no point in it. Nothing's going to be good for the next hour and a half. Yeah.

Seth Lowe (37:54.958)
in that transition between like the working in the business and on the business, I'm like a developmental person. So as I brought like more folks onto like our team, there was a season where we hired like a younger folks that like, we were excited to develop and see them grow. and as

Like I've gotten older and more experienced in my career. There have been seasons where I've found myself not doing a lot of the creating, but like, helping direct the other creatives and not tell them what to do, but to help kind of like advise like on that. And I enjoy that. I feel like if that's like all I ever do always, there is a certain aspect of like what Ox creates as a company that might suffer.

In that, so like, it is like a journey to kind of have it be like, Hey, like I created a business that like originally at the beginning, it was my name on the door. And as time has gone off, there are like a lot of other clients who haven't ever met me or like they've only ever worked with other people on our team. And that's all, all they know. what role do I have to play to like, bring my best contribution. Like to the table, but not have that be only what's brought.

As I'm talking, like, does this make any sense at all? I was actually like wondering, like as you were saying that was it hard or have you ever struggled with, maybe letting go of control, like creative control to like another creative on your team. Like if you ever, has that in someone like another director who's worked for you ever come to you and like, Hey man, like you need to just trust me with this. I've got it. Like you're kind of stepping on my toes a little bit. Have you ever had an issue like that or you know what I mean? yeah. I mean, yeah. Like that's like a huge.

Like, like growth curve for me, because like, it never feels good to be like the director on a project, but having like a producer or like a client behind the scenes is like gritting their teeth the whole time. And like trying to look over your shoulder and be like, Hey, wait, can you do this? And you're like, can you just give me a, like a bit of space? Yeah. in this, like situations like that today, I think I'm like, like a little bit wiser, hopefully. but to know.

Seth Lowe (40:16.75)
When like I delegate things, I need to delegate responsibility and not just delegate tasks. Because if I'm just delegating tasks and I'm just like, do this thing, it's still going to come back to me and I'm still carrying like all of the pressure of like the outcome of it. And that you still have that responsibility.

You shouldn't have the desk. Yeah. Which and it means the person who's doing is like, great. I'm just like a pixel pusher. Now I'm not like, I don't have to own this because you're basically just going to override me and I don't have to think anymore. You know? Yeah. and they aren't learning and growing on themselves. So for like any time, regardless of whether it's me or somebody else, cause like today, like I don't make any assignments in the company. I don't like assign any work to anybody. I don't know who's working on it. It's not my call. Okay. Okay. but,

When we give it to like a person, we have to know like, Hey, like if this is like a level up in their career into new territory, is this an area that we are comfortable with them failing a little bit in? Because if we're not comfortable with that, then like, we need to like adjust how we're like assigning this, because if we're going to assign it to you, we need to let you, you go with it. there are like, I think like,

A philosophy of thought called like a situational, I stutter. So sometimes when I have to say a consonant, it's hard for me. So I need to say an L right now, but I can't, it's a continent. It's called situational leadership. There we go. Okay. The word leadership, man, you're, you're always surprised as a stutterer what words you suddenly can't pronounce. but it divides like every like person in any job as like a leader or as like a person who's, who's creating a thing into four, a different like categories based on your confidence.

and your expertise. So it starts as like, like an S one is a person who doesn't know that they don't know. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. Your first day on set, you're really confident, right? And you're like, I got this, you know, and you're like, why are you looking over my shoulder? Tell me when I got it. And the person's like, you have no idea what you're doing. Cause you're like, you just don't know. I mean, and that's cool. Cause we all have to be there. And like everybody is at that point in some place in their life, like he is an arborist.

Seth Lowe (42:35.918)
I've had all those DPs on my job and I'm like, okay. Okay. So like an S one is like, you don't know that you don't know. And then a thing goes wrong. You learn real quick, or you get a beat down from somebody on set. He likes puts you in your place. Okay. Hopefully not that, but it's helpful, but it's just like, then like a D two is, you know, that you don't know. Okay. So in that case, your expertise is still low. but

You don't have the confidence that you used to have the curve that I put earlier. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. At that point, what you need from a leader is, is like coaching. Okay. Like a person is like, here's what you do next and encourages you. And it's like, you got this to do it. Okay. So do this and then come back to me. All right. You got it. Awesome job. So good. Like I can't wait for what you do next time. Okay. Yep. After that is D three and that is.

You don't know that, you know, okay. You have the expertise, but you're just not confident. Okay. And it's because like, Hey, you've been coming back to me to find out what you need to like to do like next all of the time. But like, if, if I wasn't here, what would you do that? that's the right answer. Great. You actually know more than you think. So like, keep, keep going for it. I think you're better than what, or like you're more, you're more experienced than what you, you realize. So go for it.

And that like, you don't tell people what to do anymore. All you do is encourage. Yeah. That's cool. I think I, and then how does that? No, no, I got excited. Sorry. I got really excited. I think last year was like a D three year for me and I had a lot of my feedback came from a lot of like peers and crew members, like, cause I work with a lot of my same friends over and over. Like a lot of moments were like a friend that I'm working with to come up to me. Like, dude, you, you knew what you were doing and you owned it. And I didn't know it, you know, I didn't know I had the, you know, it's just like a confidence thing.

Step into it on it. You know what you're doing. Don't be afraid because you've totally you're in control here to run with it. And so I had some good feedback like that last year consistently. And it was really awesome. Yeah. It's cool to have that. Cause that's how you chart like development in your life, you know, so what's next? The move is D three. Where am I going? okay. Like a D four is an expert. You know that, you know, and in that, like a situation as like a leader, you don't tell anybody what to do.

Seth Lowe (45:02.51)
All you say is, if you need any help, come ask me. And otherwise you're just on your own, which is fine. Cause you're like, great. I probably don't need that much like all the time, but each person is in. In multiple boxes at the same time in different skillsets. Yep. So like, even though I've been directing for like, you know, 24 years or something now, and I've run a business for 14 years, this is my first year.

of like being a founder, but not being CEO in my company. So there are some things that right now I'm like a D1 and I'm like a D4 and other things. But like it could be that like, Hey, like I'm like a D3 and in editing and understanding how Premiere or Avid works, but there's like a lot of new AI tools that like, I don't know how to use.

Maybe I don't want to use them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, and then you're, you're married and it could be like at a different like, or just like a dad. I'm like a D two is a dad. I'm like a D four is a filmmaker. Yeah. So yeah, totally. I relate to that. Just to backtrack a little, I don't, I don't have a stutter, but I have my brain. I like merge and mash words a lot because as I'm talking, my brain is constantly like giving me like four synonyms.

for every other word. And then a lot of times I'll say like a smorgasbord of like three of the same words at once. That was like a really bad, I don't know how to fix it, but that is something I like. I do really consistently. It drives me nuts. I love that when people do that because they make new words and there are two things and you get both of the meetings like at the same time. Yeah. I do that a lot. I was actually like, you talked about cycling at the beginning and,

I thought that was interesting because I wanted to talk with you more about it. And then it ties into what we were just talking about with failing. So, cause I cycle a lot and I actually mountain bike a lot. I mean, I enjoy it for one, but I specifically think it's really valuable for teaching my brain to push through failure and take risk because I mean, road riding is fun. Like I love road and gravel. I do that probably more, but when I'm mountain biking, you know, it's a lot of like, you have to make,

Seth Lowe (47:20.27)
kind of risk reward decisions on the fly, like over and over and over, like, can I clear this little gap? Can I get over these tree roots down this little hill? You know, all these things and you have to be willing to like exercise a little risk, reap the reward of it, but also like know the consequence and decide in real time, if you're willing to like live with the, if I crash, how bad is it going to be? And I'm willing to do that. And it's, it's really like constantly like pushing your brain to like evaluate those things in real time, which is so important for like leading a team or building a crew or being self -employed.

Yep. Yeah. Like I totally like agree with that. And, I think a tolerance for pain is like a lot of it. Yeah. and it's cool to see, well, and like a willingness to suffer. Yeah. Like how are you to suffer and like, it's not like a fixed level because I remember what was like super hard for me went like earlier in my career today is easy and like, so it's, it's not like,

Each time I experience pain or hardship, it's like bad. It's like stretching what, my capacity is and being able to see growth and to look back on that. you can't like train at your maximum intensity, a hundred percent of the time forever. So like, it needs to be like a season and be like, Hey, like now it's like a great time to back off and to, you know, to rebuild, but even like in the tour, like a defraunts, like

On the rest days, they're still writing. Yeah. They aren't like sitting on the couch, eating Cheetos. They're like, I'm going to do an easy ride. Cause like, I need to make sure that my muscles stay like in what they're doing. And their easy ride is like our hard ride. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard for you today was a, was hard for me when I was five. Yeah. I read somewhere there's like a pretty strong correlation between, endurance sports, like cycling or like long distance running.

And being self -employed or like a kind of an entrepreneur, because like your, your brain understands like the endurance and like pushing through pain cycles over like repetitive periods of time, knowing that there's like a good benefit down the road. Yeah. Well, and like, I mean, you feel like you're alone. So like, yeah, totally. You're you are. Yeah. And certain types of writing, you're just like out there by yourself for like hours and like, who even cares if you finished. Yeah.

Seth Lowe (49:42.542)
Yeah. like, it's just you, you know? but yeah, just like, yeah, just like having like a, a willingness to keep going and not like attaching shame to like a lot of stuff. Like, we had like a, a retreat, for our team at ox, like a few days ago. And, a guy who was, was talking to us, was talking about, merited guilt and unmerited guilt.

So when, when, when I think back to myself was like a leader and business owner, there are like a lot of memories that come up that just feel like a lot of guilt and shame, like around with them. my God. Like, I think about it. I want to be like, and like a little like squeak comes out. Cause I just like feel bad about it. there are certain things that like I did wrong that were just like bad decisions, you know? And maybe like you should feel like a little guilty about it. I don't know. Like

Maybe it's, it's, it's, it's merited that you would feel bad about that. You know, you're not like a terrible person because of it, but like, it's sometimes you're like, no, that's merited. Like I made a bad call and that hurts. Yeah. Yeah. Other times it's unmerited. Like it's not morally wrong. Like it, like maybe you did something that wasn't like perfect, but it wasn't like.

a character flaw. It wasn't like damage. Like it's just like in your mind, there's this shame attached to it, right? It's unmerited. So the guy who was talking to us is he's like, when you have those moments were in your mind, you're feeling small because of this, like shame and guilt that's unmerited. What should you do? And he said, do it again.

And when, and tell yourself this isn't wrong. Like you shouldn't feel bad or like, or, or dumb about that. That's just coming from like internally. Do you have an example? Give me an example. man. Yeah, that's good. As I was saying that I was like, that, that sounds really, really well. Okay. So like,

Seth Lowe (51:46.222)
You can feel guilty about resting. Okay. There are like folks like myself included that, like, if you take like a day off, or if you're like in the middle of a day and you're working hard and you're like, I'm going to take an hour to just like, maybe it's even an hour to eat lunch. Okay. In the back of your mind, I really, I didn't do anything today except for this. So I understand. I feel guilty. So like, for those of us who felt guilty to take lunch.

Or to like do something else in the middle of the day. Cause like in the back of your mind, you're telling yourself like you're that's laziness. If, if you do that or like, you know, you need to be working harder because like, otherwise it's not going to, a lot of that is just like baggage. That's like put on us by like the way we were raised or somebody told us something. And like, we feel guilty about doing it, about like taking a day off and don't check email, don't text, check social and just like enjoy doing what you're doing. Even if.

A client might email you even if a person is like, Hey, like I really need this. And you're like, that's okay. Like they can, they should be able to wait 24 hours. Okay. But you feel guilty for not doing that is unmerited guilt. And so in that case, the only way to stop feeling guilty about doing something that's actually healthy for you resting is keep doing it. That makes a ton. Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. Okay. I'm tracking them to, you know, I agree with that. That's cool. Yeah. That's who, who was it? Do you mind sharing?

it is a guy named Brian silver. so he was a, like, yeah, I w I went to college with him for a bit and now he is like a coach on stuff. Okay. Cause people look them up or something. Yep. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. I, somebody, well, a mentor of mine early on, when I first started freelancing, they said to me, your creativity is a muscle and you have to let it rest. And I never thought about that. And I, I,

come from a family, it was kind of like a, you don't, you don't work, you don't eat sort of like attitude. And so the idea of like not working or resting near you, right. Like it totally kind of associated with like guilt. Like I should be doing something to earn my keep, kind of attitude. And so I've, I've had to like intentionally build in rest cycles and tell myself, Hey, it's, it's okay. I'm going to quit working at lunch today and I'm going to go on a

Seth Lowe (54:07.246)
bike ride for a couple hours and just, I mean, and honestly, like I'm still kind of working on the bike record. I'm like processing a, a script or an idea, you know, an idea of something, but like I had to really purposely build those in over the past, probably like COVID was really good for me for that actually. Cause I just, when I started freelance, I just went crazy, like, you know, 60, 70 hours a week and we had kids. And so I was like, I got a family to support and just, I mean, kind of balls to the wall and then COVID happened and kind of just forced to slow down. And then I just,

I've just kept those habits up with like, man, I went in road once a week and it was awesome for me to do that. And I went whenever I wanted, not just at six o 'clock at night when it was, I was done. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. As uncertain as that period was like within 2020, 2021 and parts of 2022. Yeah. Like those habits, like, yeah, I'm like, how can I just carry these forward with me? Because I think this is like a better way to live in some ways. And yeah.

Absolutely. Probably how I should have been living. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, you couldn't have convinced me before it that this was like possible and good. And now I'm like, I was an idiot. Like, why didn't I like see this? Yeah. Yeah. For all of us. Yeah. Yep. I would say this year for me, like has been 23 or 22 and 23 or just like nuts busy. Like I worked so much. It was unreal. And this year for me has been like pretty consistent, but it hasn't been in like the chaos mode that 20, 22 and 23 were.

And I've had to kind of wrap my mind around that a little bit. Cause part of you is like, I always compare like kind of quarterly to where I was the year before. And so I'm like on paper, like quarterly, I'm a little slower than I was last year, but on the flip side, after looking like, well, I've actually had way more free time. I'm still getting work and paying my bills and I'm spending way more time with my family. Like way more, like I'm, it's my wife's birthday today. Happy birthday, Sarah. And.

You know, I'm a home all week, which I just never, that hasn't happened over her birthday in like five or six years, you know? So that's really cool. And you know, we've, we've been able to do some fun little trips here and there. And I've just been really like kind of rewiring rewiring my brain to not be stressed out and freaking out and just be like, Hey, you know what? It's fine. The phone rings when the phone rings and take the work I get. And that's totally cool. Cause I can't control, can't control that stuff, you know, and people know who I am though, you know, whatever it's fine.

Seth Lowe (56:33.358)
So I think, you know, five years ago, I would have probably been losing my mind right now. Yeah. Yeah. And like, as you're talking, it seems to me that like, you have multiple, like scorecards on your dashboard. Like, yeah. If the only metric that you were looking at to measure success or like failure or not is like the revenue goal, then like, that's the only thing that's going to be matter. But it seems like you have like a couple of things like.

Okay. How do I evaluate success in my family and what are those like five different things? And I'm going to look at all of those together to make, to make a decision as house thing, how things are going or not. and have it like, not just be like the revenue. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I have like, you know, family time, like I'm, I'm starting a new personal project this, this weekend that I'm really excited about. That's valuable. There's a scorecard for that. And the past two years that got a score of zero.

So this year, you know, it's, it's going to get anything higher than zero is a win, you know, and I've put in more cycling miles this year. I've still had good jobs this year and I, you know, I'm getting work. So it, you know, I just, I never thought about it. It was like sort of like a dashboard scorecard, but yeah, you're right. That's a really good, I need to maybe actually make one and to kind of try it throughout the year. One of my friends actually, do you know Seth Haley? Yeah. Yeah. Seth, Seth on his calendar has, like, I think it's like every like Tuesday or something.

He has from like nine till noon, personal work. And he's like, if I'm on a job and I'm gone, that's fine. I just don't do that day. But if I'm home, then it's on my calendar and I just do personal work on like Tuesday from nine till noon, you know? And I'm like, that's actually a really awesome way to do that. Just a weekly thing. And you just, you know, you sit down and do it and you're, you're putting time into those things no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it's getting the first and best like thoughts, you know, of your day too. Whereas if you did it at the end of the day, you're like, do you're exhausted thinking and like,

You're like, I'm only going to do this for half as long. Cause I need to go to sleep. Yeah. It's cool to be able to prioritize that stuff. Cause that's, it's usually the stuff that's the first to get cut, you know? Yeah. yeah. For sure. For sure. Especially once you get into like having a family and stuff, you're like, well, I've been gone for three weeks straight. What am I going to tell them? I'm going to leave for like another week to go shoot some silly thing that I don't even, you know what I mean? You just feel like an ass. And then, you know, I think another thing I've gotten good at

Seth Lowe (58:55.854)
and probably you as well is Nathan Beeman and I talked about this a little bit on last week's episode, but when you're busy, you kind of forget about the profitability of each job and you're just like getting it done. And if you have to spend a little extra money to get something done, you don't care. You just like go fast, get it done, swipe the credit card, who cares? But then when you slow down, you know, you just get really intentional about watching your, you know, watching the margins and learning how to maximize profitability across each job. And you know, you can still

You can make more money per job in a slow C is honestly, cause you're just more intentional and less wasteful. So that's another easy thing to do. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that like constraints do fuel creativity, but it's easy to just write a check sometimes, especially like if you're in a pension, you're like not knowing. I feel like there are like a couple of productions where I think like there was like, okay, so, like, I was really excited about this one shot.

And exactly what I had in my mind was like a dolly shot. And it's like the certain move that goes all the way in. And we were like, great. We had it in the budget. We like had it. We were like, we're going to do it. So we got the whole thing in there. And at the end of the shoot, we looked back and we're like, even though we had the money for the dolly and all this, it like, because it took like extra people, extra time to set up.

actually the whole production moves slower just because we had like the dolly. Yeah. I'm like, I think we would have gotten a way more bang for our buck by being able to be like more creative and do like tri takes a couple of different ways. If we would have just like not had that piece of gear, because it was kind of like, like the slowest thing, like to be, to get what we needed to do. And we had, we had to spend more money to it. So I was like, in retrospect, I was like, this would have been like way more money in our pocket at the, at the end of it.

I think on shoots, we would have had more time to look around and be like, what's beautiful, unexpected, and not on our shot list. That's that's here right now. Yeah. yeah. That I was like in retrospect, there's like stuff that that ha has happened to like, I think there have been like a few times after that, that I'm like, what's the thing that I feel like is essential right here. And what if I just didn't do it? Like how would that affect our like profits or the creative thing in the end? Cause sometimes I think it actually makes it better when you like,

Seth Lowe (01:01:16.11)
drop the one thing you think you have to have for this thing. Did the shot even make the edit? Dude, it was like, okay, because like, everything has to hit like a broadcast time. If your dolly shot, it's like, I had this like epic five second dolly shot. The edit can only sustained two seconds of it. So basically at the end of it, it could have been a digital zoom. Yeah. I mean, I kind of figured that's going to be the answer or something like that.

Do you think there's do you think there's any correlation between? Like the people I'm talking about myself here that wrote the research paper like the night before it was due and being a creative because you like you just you need like pressure to perform like you need that like this is the budget you have like one take like do you think there's I don't know I I was that person for sure for you, okay, a VFX supervisor that I worked with

His name's Kurt Cooper. So if you know Kurt, he's great. He lives out in Colorado. He told me a great quote, projects take as long as you have. That is very true. And they cost as much as you have. They cost as much as you have. Yeah. So there are certain times where it's just like craziness, you know, but other times it's like, you can probably get it done. You just like figure out a different way, you know? Yeah. So

Yeah, I don't know. Like I'm like, yeah, there are people who are like, cool. Like the paper is like four weeks for now. I'm going to spend every night between like now them writing it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there is a decline in quality when you take too long and there is a sweet spot for how long it takes. So maybe if you're like not picking it up until like, like the night before and having to do it all in one sitting, I don't think that's peak quality, even though you can get it done like that. Yeah.

But like an example of this is, okay. With suits. Okay. You're going to go out and buy a suit. Okay. You can buy any suit. Okay. And what we're going to do is with the, like, for those of you who are like, can't see it in our listening, it's like a curve where like on, on the vertical is quality and on the horizontal is price. Okay. Yep. So you can go to like Macy's, okay. Or like pick your favorite big box store or Macy's.

Seth Lowe (01:03:40.27)
and buy a $600 suit. Okay. Is that what they cost? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure. It could be less than that or like, I'm just going to say like, like a $600 suit. Yeah. You can spend a bit more and get a $1 ,200 suit. Okay. I'll bet you when you put on that $1 ,200 suit, you're going to feel a difference between that and the $600 like polyester suit. You know, they'll be able to tailor it a bit to get it like to fit you and all that.

On the, on, on the lapel, it'll have that like hand stitching that goes around the edge. Everybody knows this was hand stitched. If you were to spend $3 ,000 on a suit, I'm not sure if you would be able to tell that much of a difference between that and like the 1200.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I'm with, I'm with. So on the curve, the quality starts to flatten out a bit, at least in perceptibility. Like a person who knows can probably take it apart and be like, the liner is like all like this better. But if you're just looking at a person, so I kind of feel like with the amount of time that you have on a project, you're able to cram it and go really cheap and like a short amount of time as you are. But if you were to take four weeks and like, like our budget demands on this edit, we have to spend four weeks in the edit. I'm like,

After four weeks in the edit, it has like a diminishing return because you keep rehashing stuff and you're, I think the more you work on it, it's going to get worse. Yep. I, I, when my career was like kind of taken off early on and I was starting to, cause I came from photography and then started doing a lot more video. I had a friend who was an editor that I was hired to do on my post. And I started noticing that the more budgets, the more budget I had and the more time I had for the deadline, his quality of work started going down. Like it's just very quickly.

So I had to, I pretty quickly like reversed course and started cutting his budgets and cutting his time and the quality. It was so bizarre. I'm like, I don't understand this, but like I'm paying you less and giving you less deadlines and the work looks better. I just, I can never wrap my mind around it, but it's true. Yeah. Cause there's like a sweet spot, you know, and like you, you can only focus your best energy on something for so long. Yeah. people always say like, also say most of us only work three good hours a day. Yeah. I believe that for sure. Deep thinking.

Seth Lowe (01:05:49.198)
Three good hours a day. So yeah, if I'm not like on set, you know, or traveling, I, or unless I have like a pretty big post project to crank out, I probably only work like two or three hours a day. Cause I know I can just sit down for like two or three hours, really grind and get done what I need to do. And like, maybe that's from like, like my ideal day is like probably get to work by like to my desk, but like eight and I can go really hard till about lunch.

You know, 1130 or so and then lunch and then maybe I go to the gym, work on some stuff around the house, grab a cup of coffee and then maybe just come back and hit any follow up stuff like watch the edit again, make a tweak, reply to some emails, check on anything. And that is like, I probably get as much done as if I were just like dink around at my desk all day. Cause I ended up getting distracted and just messing around. Yeah. I'm I'm worthless from 1230 to 330 every day. Literally the same. Like it's complete waste of time.

Yeah. I don't know how you got the meetings. Yeah. I literally there's no point. I'm just like browsing Facebook marketplace for crap and stuff. Exactly. It's hilarious. So, well, Hey, we're kind of about it time. I mean, unless you want to double back on anything I've you've been awesome to talk with. This is going to be one of my favorite episodes for sure. Cool. Thanks. So yeah, we can wrap it up here. Hey, seriously, I appreciate it. I want to have you on again. This is really fun. We should just go ride a bike or something sometime together.

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm here for it. We'll have like, like the sound guy on a bike too, with a double boom over us right behind it. Yeah. I didn't have a cycling, a cycling episode. It's perfect. So sweet, man. All right. Well, Hey, I appreciate it. So we'll get it again. It's been awesome being on. Thanks.

Hey, thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of The Solo Creative. If you enjoyed it, I hope you share it. And you can connect with us on Instagram at thesolocreativepod. Hit us up with any questions or suggestions for show guests. Thanks and have a great week.